Gays, Muslims, and Tolerance : A Rebuttal to Cheryl

Cheryl, thank you so much for your thoughtful comments on Brad's article. I really do appreciate them and they have helped me understand your viewpoint. So thank you. However, allow me the privilege of rebuttal. “Trust you realize that many of the Muslims to whom you wish to extend greater tolerance” – Also, all your other arguments about a Muslim state. Yes, I am very aware that a number of Muslim are not gay friendly. Some are, many are not. However, I am not advocating for a Muslim society. I am (actually my guest writer Brad is) advocating for a pluralistic society in which NO religious view is allowed to oppress another. Atheism is not a religion that can be pressed on others. Atheism is “a-theism” which means ‘without theism’ just as the word “a-sexual” means ‘without a sex’. Unfortunately for your “Christian country founding” idea, this concept of an America without an endorsed God or religion is made clear in the words “congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” or, in other words, that congress shall make no law which favors any religion over another. I will admit that these words have been misused by both political sides, but the precept is still there. For example, I am for intelligent design being taught in school because it doesn’t advocate for a single deity. Nonetheless, I believe it should be taught in a Philosophy of Origins type class and not science because science deals in answerable questions (part of its very definition) and philosophy deals in the unanswerable. Also, “God did it” has never been a scientific solution. In addition, I disagree with the recent demand that a memorial cross be removed from public grounds. Yes, it is a religious symbol, but the memorial itself wasn’t a religious endorsement. It was a symbol of the death of the men for whom it stood. But let’s take your point as it is. What IF this was a Muslim nation in which “Muslim values”-- that would be as fundamentalist in doctrinal interpretation as the values we refer to as “Christian values”-- were the law of the land and you as a Christian were the minority? Would you not feel oppressed? Would you not feel discriminated against? That is Brad’s question. A gay or lesbian in a fundamentalist Muslim state would not be welcome, you are correct in that assertion. However, they would also not be made welcome in a fundamentalist Christian state such as that advocated for under dominionists such as Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell. So, I guess the best solution would be to abide by the first amendment which protects citizens from state run religious persecution. “Imagine that you either were not allowed to mention God at all in school” I dedicate an entire chapter of my book to this idea. WE ARE ALLOWED TO MENTION AND PRAY TO GOD IN SCHOOL. However, school-led (forced) prayer and biblical teaching is not allowed. Teachers can even talk about their faith if asked, as long as they are not trying to teach it to students as part of the curriculum. Students are also allowed to pray in class as long as it is not disruptive and doesn’t interrupt their work. As Christians, we REALLY need to stop spreading this lie because it only hurts us in the long run by limiting our ability to show our faith in public. “How would you like to be told that, even though the Bible condemns homosexuality in plain terms, you are not allowed to say so without being treated harshly and the Word of God rejected on this point? Imagine a world in which believing that the whole Bible is the inspired word of God, even the parts we may not like” I am sorry people call you a bigot. However, when one puts his or her opinion out there one must be prepared for proper rebuttal. For my beliefs I am called a sodomite, heathen, infidel, and heretic. It is just part of putting your beliefs out there. Below are some articles on these issues that I have written in the past that rebut some of your other statements in this section: http://www.zealotinmycloset.com/blog/_archives/2006/5/15/1959754.html http://www.zealotinmycloset.com/blog/_archives/2006/6/16/2036767.html “How would you like to have your country attacked and thousands of your citizens killed, and then have people undermine your war on the terrorists by claiming that you are discriminating against Muslims?” I believe the war on terror can be fought without imprisoning everyone with a hyphenated name. I would like to catch bin-laden and see him punished for his crime. But we cannot forget the bill of rights and the values of a country where ALL men are created equal; both are the very concepts of freedom and equality for which we claim to fight. If we forget who we are and the freedoms we stand for then what is there left to fight for other than a piece of dirt? “Can you imagine what other sexual practices we now consider unacceptable these same thrillseekers would also have legislated into existence?” Gays and lesbians are born with a rare sexual orientation. They are not ‘thrillseekers.’ They make up 8-10% of our population and are kind and loving people who desire to be as monogamous as heterosexuals (if not more monogamous, seeing as half of all heterosexual marriages end in divorce). In addition, ‘gay’ or ‘lesbian’ is more than just the sex, just as heterosexual relationships are more than just sex. It is also a mindset of loving another of the same sex in the way you would love someone of the opposite sex. Not like you would love a friend or neighbor, but the way you would love your husband or wife. I get so tired of people thinking gays and lesbians are all about what they do in the bedroom. They are not pedophiles or child-molesters. They are people with a minority orientation to both sex and romantic attachment. What if society told you that you would only be accepted if you stopped loving your boyfriend or husband and pretended to love a woman in the same fashion? This is what we as “Christians” are asking our gay and lesbian neighbors to do. I find it unjust and wrong to demand that our neighbors deny their love in order to please overstated doctrine. "gays are demanding that we let them adopt our children so that they can raise them without a mother or without a father" God forbid gays and lesbians offer a loving and caring home to any of the 134,000 children currently floating around our foster care system without a family of their own. Those beasts! Haha! “Fortunately, straight Anglo-Saxon Christians have spent the last several decades demonstrating tolerance toward gays and Muslims.” Tell that to all the gays in states where gay marriage is being banned and their communal rights to shared property are being taken away and abilities to visit ill partners in hospitals are slowly diminishing. Tell that to all the innocent Muslims who are treated as second class citizens and often arrested and imprisoned without ANY evidence, probable cause, or even a fair trial. If you call this tolerance, then please, leave me out . . .