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R.E.S.P.E.C.T.
I posted a question on my FaceBook page yesterday morning and a very spirited conversation ensued.
My question was this: My new rector is "Fr. Max". Long tradition of calling rectors "Fr." here. So, he asked me what I wanted to be called. Hmmmm . . . "Mother" is the logical choice, but . . . having said that. . . Not. Really. Comfortable. It's mostly for the kids. Everyone else will call us by our first name. What do you think?Last time I checked, there were almost 90 comments. Guess I hit a nerve, huh?
I've been in places where I've been called "Mother" or "Mother Elizabeth" - mostly inner city congregations with High Anglo-Catholic traditions. In churches from broad-church traditions, I've been mostly known as "Reverend Elizabeth," - which is still grammatically incorrect but better than being called "Reverend Kaeton," I suppose - if there can be degrees of grammatical incorrectness.
I mean, think about it. The title for a Judge is "The Honorable So-and-So" but s/he is called "Judge So-and-So," or simply, "Your Honor." Not, "Honorable So-and-So."
My title is "The Reverend" but it is grammatically incorrect to use that in a direct address. Folks from more free-church traditions seem to be fine with it. Episcopalians seem to have a particular sticking-point with this.
It's parents who either ask me about - or assume to call me by - my title as a way to emulate and teach respect in front of their children.
Their teachers are called "Mr. Smith" or "Mrs. Jones" or "Ms. Anderson." So are their neighbors. The crossing guard is "Mr. White". The Librarian is "Ms. Black." Police Officers are also called "Officer Johnson." So, referring to their clergy person with a title is a sign of respect - which I think is good.
Privately, their parents call me by my first name. Well, most do. There have been parents who insist on calling me "Reverend Elizabeth" even in private, personal conversations - even after I've said, "Please, call me 'Elizabeth'". I have come to accept that as their way of reminding me - and them - of how they see me and what they expect of me. And, it's okay.
Funny. In almost every other profession, titles are not gender specific. Doctor. Nurse. Attorney. Judge. Mayor. Senator. Officer. Private. Corporal. Sargent.
Bishop. Deacon. Chaplain. Dean. Canon.
Not Priest.
Lutherans have long used "Pastor" - which I sorta like. "Parson" has a quaint sound. I guess I'm of a certain age that "Elder" rubs me the wrong way.
The Quaker tradition of "Friend" - no matter the status of ordination - is lovely. Egalitarian. Biblical, in fact. It's what Jesus called us - well, those of us he didn't call "Beloved." He saved that title for the "anawim" - the outcast.
As one clergy colleague commented, "I guess the important thing is to make sure you answer when you're called."
Absolutely.
My dilemma has to do with the fact that personally, I don't like the title "Mother". Or, "Father". I think it sets up a very negative relational dynamic. I think it can be infantilizing for parishioners which has the potential to communicate a kind of "respect" that is simply fraught with psychological baggage that is less than helpful in Christian community.
Actually, I think it's hysterical when newly ordained 30-somethings are called "Mother" or "Father". And, if I'm in a group of clergy who are referring to each other as "Mother" or "Father" I almost always, at some point, get a really, really bad case of the giggles and have to leave the room.
Some commented on FaceBook that "Mother" carries a lot of social/cultural baggage. Well, for others, so does "Father". Sometimes, a lot more social/cultural baggage.
However, I think it's important, when there's been a norm established in the community, and the male has a certain title, the woman ought to have the equivalent title. This, for me, is the deal-breaker.
Yes, it's about parity. It's more about respect.
One clergy woman commented on FaceBook: "I went with no title and have now been told that the lack of respect I get is because people call me by my first name ..."
I think there's probably more to the situation, but she may be onto something symptomatic of the larger problem.
I know. I know. Respect has to be earned. Well, let me tell you from personal experience: in the institutional church, a woman who is a priest could walk hand stands for 10 miles, while chanting the Angelus in perfect pitch and key - twice before breakfast - and still not get the respect her male colleagues get just for walking into a room.
In the church, for women, respect is not easily 'earned'. Oh, it may have the outward and visible signs of respect, but it's really just the social graces of learned behavior.
Respect, when afforded to women, is not done so easily or well. In my experience in the church, respect must be the expectation of the ordained woman from her congregation.
This is key: She must first respect herself enough to expect respect from others.
Let me say that again: A woman must first respect herself enough to expect respect from others.In my experience, anyway, that's how it works. Other women's experience may be different. The experience of other clergy men may be different - or, the same, depending on their age.
This has been MY experience. This is how I conduct myself and the expectations I go in with in a new social situation. It has changed - modified some - as I've collected wrinkles and gray hair. I suspect some of that may be more respect for my age than my gender or my authority.
Bottom line: I have learned to respect myself and to expect respect from others.
When necessary, I insist on it.
You knew I had a story about this:
Very early in my ordained ministry, I was called for jury duty. I did NOT want to serve. It's not that I didn't want to perform my civic duty. At that particular time, I just didn't have time. I had previously served on jury duty. I would have been happy to serve at another time, but this was just a HUGE imposition on me and my community at that time.
So, I wore my collar to jury duty, figuring that no one really wants a clergy person in the jury box. This was one time I thought the negative press about "religious people" might just work in my favor.
Not so. After several hours of milling around a large room filled with other Very Unhappy People. I was called into a jury pool for a case where several employees were suing a large company for asbestosis.
The judge wanted to interview the possible jurors. I was called to take the stand, sworn in by the bailiff, and then the judge addressed me.
"Ummm . . . I see you're a clergy person."
"Yes, your honor," I said, dutifully.
"Well, I'm Catholic," he said, "and we call our clergy 'Father'. What shall I call you?" It was hard not to notice the smirk on his face.
"Well, I'm Anglo-Catholic (I meant that as my theological position but we had not yet begun to think of ourselves as Anglican the way we do now)," I said, "and you may call me 'Mother'."
He just about chocked.
"Uh. . . well . . .in the Catholic church, 'Mother' is a nun."
"Yes, I understand. I used to be Roman Catholic," I said, "But I'm not Roman Catholic any longer. I'm Anglo-Catholic. So, if you call your priests, 'Father', you may call this priest 'Mother'."
"Priest?" he chocked again, "I mean, don't they call you 'Minister'?"
"We're all ministers in baptism," I said, trying to contain my growing disdain for him. "In The Episcopal Church, I am called a 'priest'." I paused for effect: "Not 'priestess'. Priest."
"Well, isn't there anything else I can call you? I mean, like Reverend? I mean, isn't that what all Protestant clergy are called?"
"You could, I suppose, but you would be grammatically incorrect, your honor. I mean, I wouldn't call you 'Honorable ______'. I'd call you 'Judge _____ ' or simply, 'Your Honor'. And, by the way, I'm not Protestant. I'm Anglo-Catholic."
He grimaced. He shuffled papers. He cleared his throat.
"Well, then . . . . um . . .'Mother' . . . um . . . my first question to you is this: Is there any reason you know that would disqualify you from this case?"
"I'm not sure, your Honor," I said.
"You're not sure?" he raised his eyebrow in response as he lowered his chin onto the palm of his hand and tilted his head to listen to my response.
"No. I mean, well, does it matter that I think the real trial here is not whether or not the company is responsible for these men having asbestosis? Rather, I think that corporate greed is on trial here, and how the bottom line in Corporate America is always more important to the men in those hand-tailored suits and imported Italian shoes than the health and well being of those who work for them."
Yes, I was trying to get out of jury duty, but I had just sworn to tell the "truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth." So, I did.
The legal team for the plaintiffs broke into broad smiles. The legal team for the defense looked down at their shoes while they shuffled papers.
I looked back at the judge who was still resting his chin in his hand as he allowed a deep sigh of frustration to escape his lips. He stared at me for a while before the turned to the plaintiff's bench - never moving his chin from his hand.
"Gentlemen?" he asked.
"Oh, we'd LOVE this juror, your Honor. Thank you."
He looked over at the defense team.
"Need I ask?"
"The defense respectfully declines this potential juror, your Honor."
The judge looked back at me in total befuddlement.
"You are excused .. . 'Mother' (he said it like it was half a word) . . .but I reserve the right to keep you for the rest of the day in the potential jury pool."
"Yes, sir," I said. I couldn't resist adding, "I suppose I could find something to do for the next hour or so. If you'd like, I would be happy to provide pastoral care to these gentlemen here - the plaintiff's - while their legal team interviews potential jurors."
"No . . . no . . . um, thank you. That's very . . . um . . . nice of you . . .um . . . but that won't be necessary. You are excused. I mean, if you want, you can leave now. You don't have to wait around."
"Thank you, your honor," I said as I started to leave my seat.
"No, wait," he said. "One more question: Who is your bishop?"
"Excuse me?" I asked, startled.
"Who is your bishop? I want to write him a note and send him my condolences. He certainly has his hands full with you in his diocese."
The courtroom burst into a nervous giggle. I blushed and said, "Well, thank you, I think," and then got the hell out of there before answering his question or risking being sent to another jury pool.
It wasn't until later that I became furious. I mean, really! The judge making a joke about calling my bishop was the absolute HEIGHT of patriarchy. One man in authority sending condolences to another man in authority about "the little woman."
Harumph!
No, I probably hadn't earned his respect, even though I made him use a term that was equal to the status of male clergy in his life. Ultimately, he didn't even fully treat me with respect - making a joke so I would know who was really "in charge".
I just taught him how to behave in public. I can only imagine how I might have been treated - or how he might have treated other ordained women - if I hadn't insisted on at least the social pretense of equality. I know when I'm being "managed" or "tolerated".
I'd like to think that times have changed. Attitudes have changed. There are now three women who serve on the Supreme Court. There are more than a dozen women who are bishops in the Anglican Communion.
Then again, there is a woman who is Presiding Bishop and Primate.
And, we've seen how the Archbishop of Canterbury treats her.
Someone left this comment on my FaceBook page, which I just loved: "I am reminded of a (perhaps apocryphal) story from the Diocese of Western Michigan where, so it is said, there was a diocesan convention floor debate on what to call women priests. In frustration, someone said, "Well, what DO Anglicans call women in authority?" And someone else said, "Your Majesty." Works for me."Truth be told, the title of respect I've always loved is "Momma" - which is what my children call me.
I must admit that the title I love most is "Nana".
Only five people in the whole world can call me by that name. They were born into that privilege. I trust there will be a few more yet to come.
I hope to always be found worthy of the respect and trust and honor inherent in that title. I think I work the hardest to earn that one. I'd like to think I deserve it - and always will strive to do so.
All the rest of ya'll, just call me Elizabeth.
It's what God calls me. And, I always respond. Because I know God respects and loves me - even when I haven't exactly been loving and respectful to myself.
And, that's all that really matters.
My question was this: My new rector is "Fr. Max". Long tradition of calling rectors "Fr." here. So, he asked me what I wanted to be called. Hmmmm . . . "Mother" is the logical choice, but . . . having said that. . . Not. Really. Comfortable. It's mostly for the kids. Everyone else will call us by our first name. What do you think?Last time I checked, there were almost 90 comments. Guess I hit a nerve, huh?
I've been in places where I've been called "Mother" or "Mother Elizabeth" - mostly inner city congregations with High Anglo-Catholic traditions. In churches from broad-church traditions, I've been mostly known as "Reverend Elizabeth," - which is still grammatically incorrect but better than being called "Reverend Kaeton," I suppose - if there can be degrees of grammatical incorrectness.
I mean, think about it. The title for a Judge is "The Honorable So-and-So" but s/he is called "Judge So-and-So," or simply, "Your Honor." Not, "Honorable So-and-So."
My title is "The Reverend" but it is grammatically incorrect to use that in a direct address. Folks from more free-church traditions seem to be fine with it. Episcopalians seem to have a particular sticking-point with this.
It's parents who either ask me about - or assume to call me by - my title as a way to emulate and teach respect in front of their children.
Their teachers are called "Mr. Smith" or "Mrs. Jones" or "Ms. Anderson." So are their neighbors. The crossing guard is "Mr. White". The Librarian is "Ms. Black." Police Officers are also called "Officer Johnson." So, referring to their clergy person with a title is a sign of respect - which I think is good.
Privately, their parents call me by my first name. Well, most do. There have been parents who insist on calling me "Reverend Elizabeth" even in private, personal conversations - even after I've said, "Please, call me 'Elizabeth'". I have come to accept that as their way of reminding me - and them - of how they see me and what they expect of me. And, it's okay.
Funny. In almost every other profession, titles are not gender specific. Doctor. Nurse. Attorney. Judge. Mayor. Senator. Officer. Private. Corporal. Sargent.
Bishop. Deacon. Chaplain. Dean. Canon.
Not Priest.
Lutherans have long used "Pastor" - which I sorta like. "Parson" has a quaint sound. I guess I'm of a certain age that "Elder" rubs me the wrong way.
The Quaker tradition of "Friend" - no matter the status of ordination - is lovely. Egalitarian. Biblical, in fact. It's what Jesus called us - well, those of us he didn't call "Beloved." He saved that title for the "anawim" - the outcast.
As one clergy colleague commented, "I guess the important thing is to make sure you answer when you're called."
Absolutely.
My dilemma has to do with the fact that personally, I don't like the title "Mother". Or, "Father". I think it sets up a very negative relational dynamic. I think it can be infantilizing for parishioners which has the potential to communicate a kind of "respect" that is simply fraught with psychological baggage that is less than helpful in Christian community.
Actually, I think it's hysterical when newly ordained 30-somethings are called "Mother" or "Father". And, if I'm in a group of clergy who are referring to each other as "Mother" or "Father" I almost always, at some point, get a really, really bad case of the giggles and have to leave the room.
Some commented on FaceBook that "Mother" carries a lot of social/cultural baggage. Well, for others, so does "Father". Sometimes, a lot more social/cultural baggage.
However, I think it's important, when there's been a norm established in the community, and the male has a certain title, the woman ought to have the equivalent title. This, for me, is the deal-breaker.
Yes, it's about parity. It's more about respect.
One clergy woman commented on FaceBook: "I went with no title and have now been told that the lack of respect I get is because people call me by my first name ..."
I think there's probably more to the situation, but she may be onto something symptomatic of the larger problem.
I know. I know. Respect has to be earned. Well, let me tell you from personal experience: in the institutional church, a woman who is a priest could walk hand stands for 10 miles, while chanting the Angelus in perfect pitch and key - twice before breakfast - and still not get the respect her male colleagues get just for walking into a room.
In the church, for women, respect is not easily 'earned'. Oh, it may have the outward and visible signs of respect, but it's really just the social graces of learned behavior.
Respect, when afforded to women, is not done so easily or well. In my experience in the church, respect must be the expectation of the ordained woman from her congregation.
This is key: She must first respect herself enough to expect respect from others.
Let me say that again: A woman must first respect herself enough to expect respect from others.In my experience, anyway, that's how it works. Other women's experience may be different. The experience of other clergy men may be different - or, the same, depending on their age.
This has been MY experience. This is how I conduct myself and the expectations I go in with in a new social situation. It has changed - modified some - as I've collected wrinkles and gray hair. I suspect some of that may be more respect for my age than my gender or my authority.
Bottom line: I have learned to respect myself and to expect respect from others.
When necessary, I insist on it.
You knew I had a story about this:
Very early in my ordained ministry, I was called for jury duty. I did NOT want to serve. It's not that I didn't want to perform my civic duty. At that particular time, I just didn't have time. I had previously served on jury duty. I would have been happy to serve at another time, but this was just a HUGE imposition on me and my community at that time.
So, I wore my collar to jury duty, figuring that no one really wants a clergy person in the jury box. This was one time I thought the negative press about "religious people" might just work in my favor.
Not so. After several hours of milling around a large room filled with other Very Unhappy People. I was called into a jury pool for a case where several employees were suing a large company for asbestosis.
The judge wanted to interview the possible jurors. I was called to take the stand, sworn in by the bailiff, and then the judge addressed me.
"Ummm . . . I see you're a clergy person."
"Yes, your honor," I said, dutifully.
"Well, I'm Catholic," he said, "and we call our clergy 'Father'. What shall I call you?" It was hard not to notice the smirk on his face.
"Well, I'm Anglo-Catholic (I meant that as my theological position but we had not yet begun to think of ourselves as Anglican the way we do now)," I said, "and you may call me 'Mother'."
He just about chocked.
"Uh. . . well . . .in the Catholic church, 'Mother' is a nun."
"Yes, I understand. I used to be Roman Catholic," I said, "But I'm not Roman Catholic any longer. I'm Anglo-Catholic. So, if you call your priests, 'Father', you may call this priest 'Mother'."
"Priest?" he chocked again, "I mean, don't they call you 'Minister'?"
"We're all ministers in baptism," I said, trying to contain my growing disdain for him. "In The Episcopal Church, I am called a 'priest'." I paused for effect: "Not 'priestess'. Priest."
"Well, isn't there anything else I can call you? I mean, like Reverend? I mean, isn't that what all Protestant clergy are called?"
"You could, I suppose, but you would be grammatically incorrect, your honor. I mean, I wouldn't call you 'Honorable ______'. I'd call you 'Judge _____ ' or simply, 'Your Honor'. And, by the way, I'm not Protestant. I'm Anglo-Catholic."
He grimaced. He shuffled papers. He cleared his throat.
"Well, then . . . . um . . .'Mother' . . . um . . . my first question to you is this: Is there any reason you know that would disqualify you from this case?"
"I'm not sure, your Honor," I said.
"You're not sure?" he raised his eyebrow in response as he lowered his chin onto the palm of his hand and tilted his head to listen to my response.
"No. I mean, well, does it matter that I think the real trial here is not whether or not the company is responsible for these men having asbestosis? Rather, I think that corporate greed is on trial here, and how the bottom line in Corporate America is always more important to the men in those hand-tailored suits and imported Italian shoes than the health and well being of those who work for them."
Yes, I was trying to get out of jury duty, but I had just sworn to tell the "truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth." So, I did.
The legal team for the plaintiffs broke into broad smiles. The legal team for the defense looked down at their shoes while they shuffled papers.
I looked back at the judge who was still resting his chin in his hand as he allowed a deep sigh of frustration to escape his lips. He stared at me for a while before the turned to the plaintiff's bench - never moving his chin from his hand.
"Gentlemen?" he asked.
"Oh, we'd LOVE this juror, your Honor. Thank you."
He looked over at the defense team.
"Need I ask?"
"The defense respectfully declines this potential juror, your Honor."
The judge looked back at me in total befuddlement.
"You are excused .. . 'Mother' (he said it like it was half a word) . . .but I reserve the right to keep you for the rest of the day in the potential jury pool."
"Yes, sir," I said. I couldn't resist adding, "I suppose I could find something to do for the next hour or so. If you'd like, I would be happy to provide pastoral care to these gentlemen here - the plaintiff's - while their legal team interviews potential jurors."
"No . . . no . . . um, thank you. That's very . . . um . . . nice of you . . .um . . . but that won't be necessary. You are excused. I mean, if you want, you can leave now. You don't have to wait around."
"Thank you, your honor," I said as I started to leave my seat.
"No, wait," he said. "One more question: Who is your bishop?"
"Excuse me?" I asked, startled.
"Who is your bishop? I want to write him a note and send him my condolences. He certainly has his hands full with you in his diocese."
The courtroom burst into a nervous giggle. I blushed and said, "Well, thank you, I think," and then got the hell out of there before answering his question or risking being sent to another jury pool.
It wasn't until later that I became furious. I mean, really! The judge making a joke about calling my bishop was the absolute HEIGHT of patriarchy. One man in authority sending condolences to another man in authority about "the little woman."
Harumph!
No, I probably hadn't earned his respect, even though I made him use a term that was equal to the status of male clergy in his life. Ultimately, he didn't even fully treat me with respect - making a joke so I would know who was really "in charge".
I just taught him how to behave in public. I can only imagine how I might have been treated - or how he might have treated other ordained women - if I hadn't insisted on at least the social pretense of equality. I know when I'm being "managed" or "tolerated".
I'd like to think that times have changed. Attitudes have changed. There are now three women who serve on the Supreme Court. There are more than a dozen women who are bishops in the Anglican Communion.
Then again, there is a woman who is Presiding Bishop and Primate.
And, we've seen how the Archbishop of Canterbury treats her.
Someone left this comment on my FaceBook page, which I just loved: "I am reminded of a (perhaps apocryphal) story from the Diocese of Western Michigan where, so it is said, there was a diocesan convention floor debate on what to call women priests. In frustration, someone said, "Well, what DO Anglicans call women in authority?" And someone else said, "Your Majesty." Works for me."Truth be told, the title of respect I've always loved is "Momma" - which is what my children call me.
I must admit that the title I love most is "Nana".
Only five people in the whole world can call me by that name. They were born into that privilege. I trust there will be a few more yet to come.
I hope to always be found worthy of the respect and trust and honor inherent in that title. I think I work the hardest to earn that one. I'd like to think I deserve it - and always will strive to do so.
All the rest of ya'll, just call me Elizabeth.
It's what God calls me. And, I always respond. Because I know God respects and loves me - even when I haven't exactly been loving and respectful to myself.
And, that's all that really matters.
AMAZING RECORD SLEEVES OF ALL TIME
MUGABE'S BUDDY SUFFERS THELITTLE CHILDREN FOR HARD CASH
From THE ZIMBABWEAN:
Defrocked Anglican bishop Nolbert Kunonga has infuriated members of the church by turning a church building here into a school while they are forced to conduct services in the open.
Investigations by The Zimbabwean showed that the church building at Zengeza 2 is now a crèche known as ECD Pre-School. The new name has been emblazoned all over the security wall, which has also been decorated with fancy cartoon characters advertising the school, much to the chagrin of church members.
The members accuse Kunonga of using the organization’s properties for personal profit since he forcibly took them over with the help of armed police and allegedly biased courts. Kunonga is a strong ally of President Robert Mugabe and is still asked to conduct prayers at national events even though he no longer belongs to any church group.
During visits to the centre, this paper was told that the school caters for anyone who can pay, but members of the bona fide Anglican Church led by Bishop Chad Gandiya are not allowed to send their children there.
“What Kunonga is doing is not only criminal, but evil. We are being forced to meet for services in the open, with children in this cold, yet he is using God’s building to make money. This is very bad,” said a woman who asked not to be identified.
Defrocked Anglican bishop Nolbert Kunonga has infuriated members of the church by turning a church building here into a school while they are forced to conduct services in the open.
Investigations by The Zimbabwean showed that the church building at Zengeza 2 is now a crèche known as ECD Pre-School. The new name has been emblazoned all over the security wall, which has also been decorated with fancy cartoon characters advertising the school, much to the chagrin of church members.
The members accuse Kunonga of using the organization’s properties for personal profit since he forcibly took them over with the help of armed police and allegedly biased courts. Kunonga is a strong ally of President Robert Mugabe and is still asked to conduct prayers at national events even though he no longer belongs to any church group.
During visits to the centre, this paper was told that the school caters for anyone who can pay, but members of the bona fide Anglican Church led by Bishop Chad Gandiya are not allowed to send their children there.
“What Kunonga is doing is not only criminal, but evil. We are being forced to meet for services in the open, with children in this cold, yet he is using God’s building to make money. This is very bad,” said a woman who asked not to be identified.
MUGABE'S BUDDY SUFFERSTHE LITTLE CHILDREN FOR HARD CASH
From THE ZIMBABWEAN:
Defrocked Anglican bishop Nolbert Kunonga has infuriated members of the church by turning a church building here into a school while they are forced to conduct services in the open.
Investigations by The Zimbabwean showed that the church building at Zengeza 2 is now a crèche known as ECD Pre-School. The new name has been emblazoned all over the security wall, which has also been decorated with fancy cartoon characters advertising the school, much to the chagrin of church members.
The members accuse Kunonga of using the organization’s properties for personal profit since he forcibly took them over with the help of armed police and allegedly biased courts. Kunonga is a strong ally of President Robert Mugabe and is still asked to conduct prayers at national events even though he no longer belongs to any church group.
During visits to the centre, this paper was told that the school caters for anyone who can pay, but members of the bona fide Anglican Church led by Bishop Chad Gandiya are not allowed to send their children there.
“What Kunonga is doing is not only criminal, but evil. We are being forced to meet for services in the open, with children in this cold, yet he is using God’s building to make money. This is very bad,” said a woman who asked not to be identified.
Defrocked Anglican bishop Nolbert Kunonga has infuriated members of the church by turning a church building here into a school while they are forced to conduct services in the open.
Investigations by The Zimbabwean showed that the church building at Zengeza 2 is now a crèche known as ECD Pre-School. The new name has been emblazoned all over the security wall, which has also been decorated with fancy cartoon characters advertising the school, much to the chagrin of church members.
The members accuse Kunonga of using the organization’s properties for personal profit since he forcibly took them over with the help of armed police and allegedly biased courts. Kunonga is a strong ally of President Robert Mugabe and is still asked to conduct prayers at national events even though he no longer belongs to any church group.
During visits to the centre, this paper was told that the school caters for anyone who can pay, but members of the bona fide Anglican Church led by Bishop Chad Gandiya are not allowed to send their children there.
“What Kunonga is doing is not only criminal, but evil. We are being forced to meet for services in the open, with children in this cold, yet he is using God’s building to make money. This is very bad,” said a woman who asked not to be identified.
PRAYER REQUEST UPDATE
FROM ELLIE:
Deo gratias!!!
Subject: My grand nephew improving
My niece is able to hold her baby now for 20 minutes every 3 hours. They have removed all the lines except one little IV. We are hoping he will get to come home this weekend.
Deo gratias!!!
Subject: My grand nephew improving
My niece is able to hold her baby now for 20 minutes every 3 hours. They have removed all the lines except one little IV. We are hoping he will get to come home this weekend.
BIBLICALLY BASED SEXUAL ABUSE
From THE BRISBANE TIMES:
Chris Firman was an assistant chaplain and teacher at the Whitsunday Anglican School when he took nude photos of a 15-year-old female student.
He befriended the troubled teenager, showed her semi-nude pictures of women in two photo albums at his home, and raised the issue of nudity with her.
“He said Adam and Eve in the Bible were naked and we were not supposed to be worried about it and it wasn't something to be ashamed of,” the girl told the District Court in Mackay yesterday.
COMMENT: There have always been serpents in paradise.
Chris Firman was an assistant chaplain and teacher at the Whitsunday Anglican School when he took nude photos of a 15-year-old female student.
He befriended the troubled teenager, showed her semi-nude pictures of women in two photo albums at his home, and raised the issue of nudity with her.
“He said Adam and Eve in the Bible were naked and we were not supposed to be worried about it and it wasn't something to be ashamed of,” the girl told the District Court in Mackay yesterday.
COMMENT: There have always been serpents in paradise.
AGAINST THE GRAIN
From THE COMMERCIAL APPEAL (Memphis, USA):
When pastor Steve Stone initially heard of the mosque and Islamic center being erected on the sprawling land adjacent his church, his stomach tightened. Then he raised a 6-foot sign reading, "Welcome to the Neighborhood."
The issue for Stone and the 550-person Heartsong Church in Cordova, came down to one question:
"What would Jesus do if He were us? He would welcome the neighbor," Stone said.
While plans for Islamic centers across the country and just miles away have triggered vitriolic responses and divided communities, here in Memphis it's been a peaceful process. While the 4,000-square-foot mosque is being completed, Heartsong has opened its doors to its neighbors throughout the monthlong observance of Ramadan. Under a gigantic cross constructed of salvaged wood, nearly 200 area Muslims have been gathering each night to pray.
"I've got fear and ignorance in me, too," said Stone, referring to his and some of his congregants' early apprehension toward the Memphis center.
But as members of the Christian congregation take the opportunity to sit in on Ramadan prayers and meet people at the nightly gatherings, much of that mystery and fear has dissipated.
"I think it's helped break down a lot of barriers in both congregations," said Islamic center board member Danish Siddiqui.
Without a place to call home, young Muslims are more likely to seek more radical interpretation of the Quran online, says Arsalan Shirwany, a board member and father of three.
When it is finished, the new facility will be a center for the whole community, and a place for interfaith cooperation, Shirwany said. "This is what we need to fight extremism."
COMMENT: The Cordova muslims, as well as the Heartsong Christians, are avery special bunch of people. To behonest, I can't imagine that many Imams in the UK would allow their congregations to worship in a Christian church, least of all under a huge image of the "Son of God." But, of course, I could be wrong on this.
A big thank you to BooCat for sending me the link to this story.
When pastor Steve Stone initially heard of the mosque and Islamic center being erected on the sprawling land adjacent his church, his stomach tightened. Then he raised a 6-foot sign reading, "Welcome to the Neighborhood."
The issue for Stone and the 550-person Heartsong Church in Cordova, came down to one question:
"What would Jesus do if He were us? He would welcome the neighbor," Stone said.
While plans for Islamic centers across the country and just miles away have triggered vitriolic responses and divided communities, here in Memphis it's been a peaceful process. While the 4,000-square-foot mosque is being completed, Heartsong has opened its doors to its neighbors throughout the monthlong observance of Ramadan. Under a gigantic cross constructed of salvaged wood, nearly 200 area Muslims have been gathering each night to pray.
"I've got fear and ignorance in me, too," said Stone, referring to his and some of his congregants' early apprehension toward the Memphis center.
But as members of the Christian congregation take the opportunity to sit in on Ramadan prayers and meet people at the nightly gatherings, much of that mystery and fear has dissipated.
"I think it's helped break down a lot of barriers in both congregations," said Islamic center board member Danish Siddiqui.
Without a place to call home, young Muslims are more likely to seek more radical interpretation of the Quran online, says Arsalan Shirwany, a board member and father of three.
When it is finished, the new facility will be a center for the whole community, and a place for interfaith cooperation, Shirwany said. "This is what we need to fight extremism."
COMMENT: The Cordova muslims, as well as the Heartsong Christians, are avery special bunch of people. To behonest, I can't imagine that many Imams in the UK would allow their congregations to worship in a Christian church, least of all under a huge image of the "Son of God." But, of course, I could be wrong on this.
A big thank you to BooCat for sending me the link to this story.
CHARITY BEGINS IN JARROW
From THE WAY:
The bishop of Jarrow, the Rt Rev Mark Bryant (Church of England), has pledged to give his £250 winter fuel handout from the government to charity. He is calling on older people in work, who also receive the payment, to do the same.
Writing in the latest issue of the Diocese of Durham's magazine, bishop Bryant wrote: "It does look as if the Winter Fuel Payment is not really working in using money to get to the people who need it most. The facts of the matter are that I - and many other people in work - simply do not need the Winter Fuel Payment. There are others who are not getting it, who need it more."
COMMENT: Of course, there is a big difference between a suffragan bishop's salary and the salary of a person stacking shelves at B&Q,* and this must be factored in to such appeals for largesse. But I like the bishop's attitude, especially that he is leading by example and not, as so often happens, excluding himself because of "special circumstances." However, it would be far simpler if the stinking rich just gave most of their earnings to the poor and left both the poor and the average waged to enjoy their hard earned cash.
* B&Q are a DIY chain in the UK who have an admirable policy of deliberately employing older people. With the exception of the pitiful wages their employees receive, as is usual in the retail sector, this positive discrimination works well for both parties. B&Q's older workers, who will have been victims of ageism in the employment market, get a job and B&Q get a whole load of workers who are wise, helpful and well-mannered.
The bishop of Jarrow, the Rt Rev Mark Bryant (Church of England), has pledged to give his £250 winter fuel handout from the government to charity. He is calling on older people in work, who also receive the payment, to do the same.
Writing in the latest issue of the Diocese of Durham's magazine, bishop Bryant wrote: "It does look as if the Winter Fuel Payment is not really working in using money to get to the people who need it most. The facts of the matter are that I - and many other people in work - simply do not need the Winter Fuel Payment. There are others who are not getting it, who need it more."
COMMENT: Of course, there is a big difference between a suffragan bishop's salary and the salary of a person stacking shelves at B&Q,* and this must be factored in to such appeals for largesse. But I like the bishop's attitude, especially that he is leading by example and not, as so often happens, excluding himself because of "special circumstances." However, it would be far simpler if the stinking rich just gave most of their earnings to the poor and left both the poor and the average waged to enjoy their hard earned cash.
* B&Q are a DIY chain in the UK who have an admirable policy of deliberately employing older people. With the exception of the pitiful wages their employees receive, as is usual in the retail sector, this positive discrimination works well for both parties. B&Q's older workers, who will have been victims of ageism in the employment market, get a job and B&Q get a whole load of workers who are wise, helpful and well-mannered.
ST. LAIKA'S
I expect many of you will have noticed the new link in the sidebar to a new blog page with the name "St. Laika's." Those of you who clicked through to the page today will have guessed that, despite promises to the contrary, it will not go live today. This is because I am still getting stuff together for the grand launch. I think that it will be up and running within the next week or so.
St. Laikas's is a project that the Chin Wag crew have been working on for a while. It is an experiment, a work in process. It will be an attempt to create an inclusive, fluid, worshipping, community on the internet using basic blogging tools and the skills of the people of our neighbourhood (which are many and varied). In stead of just broadcasting live services, each service will be made up of contributions from various people, much of which will come from their real life church communities and/or their own ministries (lay and clerical). There will be a separate webpage dedicated specifically to spiritual matters (meditation, prayer, that sort of stuff) which will be interactive. We will be building our own calendar of saints and feast days. There will be small groups, book clubs, and all that jazz. There will be articles and meditations from all sorts of people and, basically anything else that takes our fancy. We also hope to bring the real and the virtual worlds together by arranging things to happen outside of cyberspace, building on what we have already achieved in this respect through our blogs.
As I am unemployed at this moment in time, administrating the site will be my sole ministry for the foreseeable future. But it won't be just my show. Well, as long as you all join in, it won't.
I am looking for musicians, including singers, who have the capability to record their own performances and send them through to me. It would be really nice to have some organ music that could be played before and after worship, just like in a real church. If you can help in this respect please email me (or leave a comment below). I can give you details, if you need them, as to how to send mp3 files over the net. We are now fully licensed to podcast music on the OCICBW... group of blogs, so there is no need to worry about royalties (I've already paid them).
Also, anybody who has the facility to record their own sermons please get in touch. We will be following the Common Lectionary so we can use sermons you will be preaching in your own churches.
The main service will be podcasted each Sunday and will be eucharistic. How that will work out is something I am really looking forward to discovering.
Other than all that - just stay tuned (don't touch that dial!).
St. Laikas's is a project that the Chin Wag crew have been working on for a while. It is an experiment, a work in process. It will be an attempt to create an inclusive, fluid, worshipping, community on the internet using basic blogging tools and the skills of the people of our neighbourhood (which are many and varied). In stead of just broadcasting live services, each service will be made up of contributions from various people, much of which will come from their real life church communities and/or their own ministries (lay and clerical). There will be a separate webpage dedicated specifically to spiritual matters (meditation, prayer, that sort of stuff) which will be interactive. We will be building our own calendar of saints and feast days. There will be small groups, book clubs, and all that jazz. There will be articles and meditations from all sorts of people and, basically anything else that takes our fancy. We also hope to bring the real and the virtual worlds together by arranging things to happen outside of cyberspace, building on what we have already achieved in this respect through our blogs.
As I am unemployed at this moment in time, administrating the site will be my sole ministry for the foreseeable future. But it won't be just my show. Well, as long as you all join in, it won't.
I am looking for musicians, including singers, who have the capability to record their own performances and send them through to me. It would be really nice to have some organ music that could be played before and after worship, just like in a real church. If you can help in this respect please email me (or leave a comment below). I can give you details, if you need them, as to how to send mp3 files over the net. We are now fully licensed to podcast music on the OCICBW... group of blogs, so there is no need to worry about royalties (I've already paid them).
Also, anybody who has the facility to record their own sermons please get in touch. We will be following the Common Lectionary so we can use sermons you will be preaching in your own churches.
The main service will be podcasted each Sunday and will be eucharistic. How that will work out is something I am really looking forward to discovering.
Other than all that - just stay tuned (don't touch that dial!).
AH! YOU ALL NOTICED...
It's seems that the PERFORMING RIGHTS SOCIETY in the
UK has discovered that telling the truth doesn't always pay...
Please be assured that we will still be exploiting you?
UK has discovered that telling the truth doesn't always pay...
Please be assured that we will still be exploiting you?
DICKY DORKINS WATCH
THE SOPPY OLD MASON SELECTION
I tell you, Soppy Sheila fans, my good buddy, Jay, at
BAILEY'S BUDDY, has unearthed the ultimate selection. Go
visit his blog NOW!
With the exception of those of you who will find it cruel
and/or degrading, I guarantee you will not be disappointed.
BAILEY'S BUDDY, has unearthed the ultimate selection. Go
visit his blog NOW!
With the exception of those of you who will find it cruel
and/or degrading, I guarantee you will not be disappointed.
MADPRIEST'S THOUGHT FOR THE DAY
The new style of interviewing prospective priests, common throughout most, probably all, of the Church of England dioceses (though, in practice, different in every one) does not weed out lazy, ineffectual priests, as it was intended to do. It is, in fact, weeding out priests who do not conform to a very narrow "type" of priest, that type being what non-Christians, and also many Christians, would refer to as trendy or vague or sanctimonious or wishy washy etc. There are far less bishops in the Church of England with individuality, imagination and eccentricity, or the desire to take risks, than there ever have been in the history of the church. As like employs like the church is quickly becoming in reality a parody of itself as portrayed in so many sitcoms and comedy sketches and the priesthood has become stale and downright boring.
To put it simply, there ain't going to be a John Henry Newman, Conrad Noel, Woodbine Willie, Bishop Bell / King / Beckett et al anytime in the near future as far as I can see and my church is going to be dashed on the rocks by a bunch of bank managers and trendy social workers. My guess is that, within the decade, Sunday services will be replaced, throughout the church, with seminars on "how to be church," encounter groups, group bonding workshops and book launchings.
To put it simply, there ain't going to be a John Henry Newman, Conrad Noel, Woodbine Willie, Bishop Bell / King / Beckett et al anytime in the near future as far as I can see and my church is going to be dashed on the rocks by a bunch of bank managers and trendy social workers. My guess is that, within the decade, Sunday services will be replaced, throughout the church, with seminars on "how to be church," encounter groups, group bonding workshops and book launchings.
HEADLINE OF THE DAY
HEADLINE OF THE DAY
