Can Crossleft.org be the MoveOn.Org of Progressive Christianity?
Can CrossLeft.org be to Progressive Christianity as MoveOn.org is to Progressive Politics?
We seem to be gaining momentum and interest on the site. How do we do it? Where do we go from here?
I am anxiously waiting on guidelines for local and regional organizing strategies. Do we need two circles of influence? One for the Peace issues, Environmental concerns, and economic justice, and another circle of influence that includes GLBT and Reproductive Rights issues? The former would definitely be a broader, wider circle.
I am suggesting that even though it is great fun to debate theology, and we can have posts and forums that do that,theological slant is not what we are trying to spread in our circle of influence. We are Progressive Christians who want to put our faith into action in the world. Whether you believe Mother Mary was literally a virgin or whether the virgin birth was a myth or metaphor is entirely up to you and it is not really Crossleft’s mission to convince you of either opinion. We want you to do unto your brother as you would do unto yourself and take the action that is necessary to achieve that end
Comments? Constructive Criticism? Good logical arguments that dispute all I have said?
A Needed Wedge?
Surely there is an element of what we have been doing here at Cross Left that is a wedge. We are trying to separate certain right-wing politics from the Christian message by inserting the wedge of our left-wing views. Now if we end up in a position of saying that our views are the only Christian views then we have done nothing more than repeat the error we are trying to correct. Neither should we be driving a wedge in order to separate the Body of Christ. But finding ways to get along when our interpretations of the same story are so diametrically opposed will continue to be a huge challenge.
Let's take war as an example. The most grief I've gotten from my congregation recently was when I preached pacifism. For the three centuries closest to Christ, pacifism was the only accepted doctrine of the church relating to war. Thus, my view can be argued to be the truly orthodox one. But, I made sure to make clear that just war was equally valid for Christians and that I respected each individual's freedom of conscience to prayerfully decided what to believe and do. Now that is tiresome work in a debate of ideas, but if left undone leaves us entrenched and looking for winners instead of progress.
I welcome any issue where we can find common ground and engage in common action. But that cannot keep us from putting forward passionate and well-reasoned arguments from our faith positions that advance a progressive agenda.
Endless War
Our endless militarism is the biggest reason I am here, Culture Dove. I am not a total Pacifist, there is a time and place when there are no alternatives but to fight, but they are rare. I also understand that by believing that statement,my spiritual evolution is not complete.
My country is the number one arms salesperson in the world. My country is the number one polluter in the world. My country is the most militarized nation in the world and the country that most of the world fears as a threat to their existence.
We need to change that. America needs to follow the teachings of Jesus and how do you teach that to a nation that thinks it is a Christian nation?
Liberarting Empire
Jim, you make excellent points about the awareness of your own spiritual evolution. I resonate with that brother, I, too am still evolving. We are Rome, we are Babylon, and as a democracy each of us as citizens bears personal responsibility. That leads to your excellent question, how do we teach the change made necessary by truly following the teachings of Jesus? We must not apologize for our story, must not have qualms about preaching Christ the liberator and we must be filled with passion and joy. Can we generate some of that here through Cross Left? I pray that we can!
Evolution Revolution: PASSION + JOY!!!
"I said, 'You are "gods": you are all children of the Most High God."-Psalm 82:6
It has been said that evolution is being held up by fundamentalism and the surge of fundamentalism throughout all faith paths sends shivers through cynical atheists and mystics alike. The bumper sticker actually did get it right: "We are spiritual beings having a human experience."
According to the 1987 classic, "The Different Drum: Community Making and Peace", Dr. Scott Peck defines the spiritual life as fluid and that one may pass back and forth repeatedly through any of the four-probably more-stages of the soul.
Stage one upon this journey -that begins from within-is essentially our infancy in the spiritual life. Like a wild child, a person in this stage reflects the inner chaotic and anti-social, unregenerate soul that is interested only in its own self-satisfaction and ego, much like the stereotypical spoiled child. Stage one people may claim to love others, but their behavior reflects they love their own pleasure, money, power, prestige, and security above any other. For stage one people, it really is all about them.
The good news is that the vast majority of humanity responds to that inner tug which is God, for lack of a better word. Catherine of Sienna wrote that within us all is the divine diamond. But life and all our baggage dulls the flame of our divine brilliance. Stage two souls seek to "let their light shine" and will live virtuous lives and do many good works. They also can be judgmental of others, self-righteous, rigid of thought, cold of heart, legalistic concrete literal thinkers and may even be guilty of a lukewarm faith. They want to do right and they even may desire to love and please God, but have not yet fully opened up to the Inner Light, as Joan of Arc did when she challenged church and state and persisted that she had intuited God within -even while being fried.
Stage two souls have not yet been set fully free and prefer the security of a higher human authority than themselves for guidance. They submit to institutions, scripture, dogma, ritual, ministers, or gurus. This is the most appropriate stage for older children and most adults who live busy lives just trying to keep bread on the table and a dry roof above. The difference between a stage one and stage two soul, is that a one wouldn't even notice a neighbor in need, while the two has awoken to the fact that we are to be our neighbor's keepers and they will respond to a friend-and like the good Samaritan, even to a total stranger in need.
Most theologians would agree that the opposite of faith is not disbelief: the opposite of faith is fear. Stage three souls have not just fearlessly awoken, they have evolved! This evolution has led them to the realization of what Christ was really talking about in the Sermon of the Mount AKA:The Beatitudes which sound like crazy promises, but is the litmus test of how we will be judged, if we claim to be a Christian.
About 2,000 years ago, when Christ was about 33, he hiked up a hill and sat down under an olive tree and began to teach the people;
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven."
In other words: it is those who know their own spiritual poverty, their own limitations and sins honestly and trust God loves them in spite of themselves who already live in the Kingdom of God.
How comforted we will all be, when we see, we haven't got a clue, as to the depth and breadth of pure love and mercy of The Divine Mystery of The Universe. God's name in ancient Aramaic is Abba which means Daddy as much as Mommy and He/She: The Lord has said, "My ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not yours." -Isaiah 55:8
Christ proclaimed more: "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
The essence of meek is to be patient with ignorance, slow to anger and never hold a grudge. In other words: how happy you will be when you also know humility; when you know yourself, the good and the bad, for both cut through every human heart.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, they will be filled."
In other words: how happy you will be when your greatest desire is to do what "God requires, and he has already told you what that is; BE JUST, BE MERCIFUL and walk humbly with your Lord."-Micah 6:8
"Blessed are the merciful, they will be shown mercy." In other words: how happy you will all be when you choose to return only kindness to your 'enemy.'
"For with the measure you measure against another, it will be measured back to you." Christ warns his disciples as he explains the law of karma in Luke 6:27-38.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they see God."
In other words: how happy you will be when you WAKE UP and see God is already within you, within every man, every woman and every child. The Supreme Being is everywhere, the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end. Beyond The Universe -and yet so small; within the heart of every atom.
"Blessed are The Peacemakers: THEY shall be called the children of God."
Oh how happy the WORLD will be when we all seek justice and pursue it, for there can be none without the other.
"Blessed are those who are persecuted because they do what God requires, theirs is The Kingdom of Heaven." And one fine day the lion will lie down with The Lamb and man will make war no more and that is the Kingdom of God.
Now, a stage three soul may well reject Christ as God, but often agree with the philosophy of Jesus, which Thomas Jefferson laid out when he weeded out the miracle stories from the gospels and clarified the teachings and ethics of Christ in:
THE LIFE AND MORALS of JESUS of NAZARETH
1. Be just: justice comes from virtue which comes from the heart.
2. Treat people the way we want to be treated.
3. Always work for PEACEFUL resolutions, even to the point of returning violence with COMPASSION.
4. Consider valuable the things that have no material value.
5. Do not judge others.
6. Do not bear grudges.
7. Be modest and unpretentious.
8. Give out of true generosity, not because we expect to be repaid.
9. Being true to one's self in more important than being loyal to one's family...those who think they know the most are the most ignorant...
A stage three soul will see that a neighbor is everyone on the planet and not just those who think and look the same. Stage three's are seekers, doubters, skeptics, atheists, agnostics and frequently adults who grew up disenchanted with institutionalized religion. Their inherent intellectual curiosity leads them to seek their own way towards the Mystery of the Divine through philosophy and the study of multiple faith paths choosing and discarding according to their "inner light." Stage three souls often become activists for social justice and reform and the new wave of philanthropy from the blessed trio of Warren Buffet, Linda and Bill Gates fills mystics -and maybe some cynics?- with hope for a future that honors the unique sacredness of every life.
It has been said we are all called to be mystics in the market place and a stage four, such as Thomas Merton and Rumi give voice to that experience of the curtain being lifted and seeing through the glass a bit less darkly.
A mystic can best be understood as one who is in love with the divine mystery and is viscerally connected to the unity of all creation.
Mystics are not navel gazers, they feel the pain of the world within their hearts and grieve at what humans do to the other when they have no clue that The Divine is within the other as much as within themselves.
Mystics have detached from their concepts of God-not by their own efforts, but by the invitation and action of God upon a willing and simple soul in love with Pure Being, AKA:God.
The mystic fool, Saint Francis, the leper kisser of Assisi, was so head over heels in love with God in everyone and all of creation that most people of his time considered him crazed, or at least, extremely eccentric.
One needn't be a mystic or move beyond stage two on the spiritual journey to do what is good and right just because it is good and right.
On that foundation alone people of faith, atheists and agnostics can surely find something to agree upon.
"I said, 'You are "gods": you are all children of the Most High God."-Psalm 82:6
Or would only a mystic see that?
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
answering Jim's question
Jim,
I think we have to move some of our discussion to action during the new year. Its important that we have this forum to discuss and hash out the issues, but if we want to affect the broader discourse we need to get active!
I'm ready Jim for a great 2008!
wow... really??
"Progressive" Christianity?? What is that??? Since when are we supposed to be "in the world" AND "of the world?" We as Christians, whether liberal or conservative, are called to spread the message and gospel of Jesus Christ as he did. If you don't think that fundamentalist Christians put their faith into action every day, you are out of your mind. This seems to be the same mindset group as the group in my church (I am Reformed) who decided we didn't need to teach anything about what it means to be reformed and start teaching what it means to be Christians. Last time I checked, and for anyone else who has done any study on the topic, the Reformed Tradition entails all of the quintessential values and beliefs as what people tend to call Christianity. I am fully aware that we are blessed with religious freedom in this country and I am not pressing the issue that everyone should be reformed. However, when groups like this infiltrate denominational circles and think they are going to come in and save all us hicks from ignorance and lack of diversity, and that we should stop preaching the ideals and beliefs that define the type of church we are, that is like going to a Catholic Church and telling them they should stop all that mass and Mary business because it is awful darn Catholic of them. I am quite certain that if any Christian of any denomination or lack thereof picks up a copy of the Apostles' Creed, they will say,, "yeah, I believe that." I also assume that if I told you that I believe the appropriate approach to scripture is to take it as a whole, not just define beliefs from certain verses, you would agree with me. Picking out certain verses to base beliefs on and disregarding the rest is how we get people like David Karesh.
One of my favorite quotes is, "God is neither a Republican or a Democrat," this site and this group seems to be turning him into a liberal and condemning all who believe in Religious bipartisanism.
Do not judge and condemn the religious right, you do not have the authority.
Read The Beatitudes
Read the Beatitudes, that is what Progressive Christianity is all about. The Beatitudes are considered bedrock Christianity by all major demoinations. As far as the "hick" comment goes, I live in an area that is in the bottom 1% of population density for the U. S. A. and my neighbors are not all right wing fundamenalists.
what is progressive Christianity?
You've made a lot judgement about who we are with spending all of about 10 minutes on the site. I suggest you maybe poke around a little bit and read what folks are saying before automatically judging our efforts.
Progressive Christianity has both theological and political elements within the movement.
CrossLeft was set up to "balance the Christian voice" as our motto says. Too often the fundamentalist Christians have told folks that this is what they must believe theologically and politically in order to be Christian. The mainstream media picked up on that and essentially portrayed Christianity as fundamentalist and conservative politically for the last 30 years. We offer a different perspective.
Here's a good post to get you started on some of the differences:
http://www.crossleft.org/?q=node/5568
Too much credit??
If what is posted there defines the fundamental beliefs of Progressive Christianity, then that is nothing new at all. Those are the same fundamentals and lessons I have been taught in my church and subscribe to today. Yes, The Bible is to be taken as a whole, and yes, subtle differences and ambiguities are not as important as the whole.
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy universal catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Maybe I am crazy, but I was under the idea that these are basic Christian beliefs, beliefs that are essential to Christianity itself. I understand if one wishes to dispute the idea of Mary's virginity, however, I still believe that these are basic outlines to calling oneself a Christian. I am certainly not agreeing with the idea that what has happened to the image of Christianity because of the Fundamentalist Right is okay... However, this site seems to be pushing political beliefs through the cover of religion. Perhaps this is an issue that was foreseen when the founding fathers developed the idea of separation of religion and politics?
I am not judging your efforts, I agree with many of the things on this site, I do however question your motives... are they political or religious? This isn't balancing the Christian voice, it seems to be driving a wedge in Christianity.
Leaving it up to God
I leave it up to God to decide who is a Christian and who isn't. It is so liberating letting God do God's job and me do mine.
Amen
Amen to that Jim. I think at the end of the day that may just be what defines a progressive Christian, not judging the other whether its their Christianity or folks of other faiths or no faith at all.
Hope you had a great Christmas.
Balancing the Christian Voice
The idea is that all people of faith are nor obssessed with denying a woman choice in reproductive rights, homophobia, and "killing for Jesus". I don't think the "Prince of Peace" wants us to kill anyone for Him.
We are "balancing the Christian voice" by speaking out on these issues and letting people know that we too are people of faith and that 25% of the poulation that constitutes the religious right does not speak for us.
We are putting our faith into action. You say we are driving a wedge , are we to be quiet as the right wing cries for blood in the Middle East in the name of God? What kind of madness is that?
Nicene Creed? Yes! I believe that too!
I think we all do around here. Now we could (and do) quibble about the language until the cows come home, but yes, I think we can all get behind that! (Common ground! yay!)
You ask:
I am not judging your efforts, I agree with many of the things on this site, I do however question your motives... are they political or religious?
My answer is "yes."
I'd love to leave it right there, with just YES as the answer to your "or" question. I think what you want to hear about is which comes first, the religion or the politics? I think our politics come out of our religious beliefs, and our issues are multi-dimensional. We definitely have opinions on more than abortion and gay rights. Keep reading, you'll see.
And I think our objective, if we could choose one clear single objective, would be for our Christian voice to be heard, as well as the voices on the right. I think that makes us a PAC, or a PAC wannabe. The "debate" section is us striving for common opinions we can all rally around as a group platform.
My language is surely not what the founders of the group would use, but I think I am in the ballpark. Like, close enough to smell the hotdogs!
Welcome, gerridmouw! I'm Janet (that's THE Janet to my friends). It's nice to meet you and I think I'm looking forward to more discussions with you. I would really love to discuss this "driving a wedge in Christianity" statement, but I think it needs its own topic, because I think that your explication for that will open up lots of good juicy worms. I can't wait!
Apostles' Creed
The Nicene Creed is a bit longer, that was the Apostles' Creed, same principle though.
How right you are. Well, I
How right you are. Well, I believe in both of 'em! So there. :)
i would encourage you to explore more
I would encourage you to explore the site more.
I think there have been a number of deep conversations about our faith, how we read the Bible, etc. Our faith is guiding us completely as we engage in discussion and I'm frankly surprise that you would judge our motives after being here a half hour.
The politics come from our faith. For example, if Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers," I believe he intended us to be actively engaged on personal and political level in peacemaking. He didn't say blessed are the peace prayers or blessed or those who sit on the sidelines and hope for peace. His call to peacemaking requires us to be active politically when our country pre-emptively attacks another country, kills thousands of innocent civilians, all over lies from our President. I believe Jesus's example to healing us the sick, requires us to advocate for children's health insurance and indeed universal health care.
I could go on, but the values that Jesus gave us through his teachings and the example of his life, informs our theology and our politics here. I welcome you to engage a bit more with the hope that you judge not.
I understand your platform...
I know where you all are coming from. I understand that your faith guides your discussions, thoughts, debates, etc... don't take this the wrong way... but so did Hitler. I also get your point, you're political liberals but also Christians and you are proving that one can be both. However, I don't see how some of the issues debated on this site could be open to interpretation. For example, abortion. Are you really debating when life begins? What do you think Christ would say on the issue? The Bible says that sex is a gift between a man and a woman and the life that results is also a gift. Is this group really going to argue whether life begins after 4 weeks or at the beginning of brain activity? Regardless of whether or not the Bible mentions anything about the soul, is abortion really something you are going to say Christ would agree with? Like I said before, I am not a radical right-wing Christian who is going to go out and blow-up an abortion clinic, and I understand the world we live in and the consequences of repealing the long-standing law, however, I do not believe we as Christians should be debating on when the life-cycle begins and basing decisions off of that. This is one example and i realize it is a lot of stream-of-consciousness but I hope you get my drift. Maybe I am way off, but I've taken your advice and have been poking around this site and reading different posts for about 4 hours now and I feel like I get the jest of your message. Please inform me if I am wrong.
Another purpose for the site
Welcome Gerrid.
As you and others have already noted, part of the point of this site is to merely state that Christianity and progressive or liberal politics are not mutually exclusive AND that there are many people who believe that they are very compatible. In other words, we want to create awareness of alternative Christian political perspectives.
Another purpose is to probe each other's perspectives and beliefs in an attempt to discover, explore, and find points of commonality and ways in which we can come together in spite our differences and different understandings of God's word (on specifics). I presume that the hope is that through this ongoing dialogue, that we will eventually be able to communicate a message that will be effective and have broad appeal to our Christian brothers and sisters of various denominations.
So, what you've seen in some of the posts, are attempts to express what are individual beliefs are related to scripture (as you say politics informed by our faith) and then how that might translate into a position on civil law and political policy. Please join in and explore with us. We're not here to divide, but to figure out the best way to unite.
David
we actually don't have a platform
We actually don't have a formal platform, although there has been some talk of that. The conversations you were readig about abortion and homosexuality was the community trying to come to terms on those issues, trying to find common ground. I would say that there is wide range of opnion on these issues, although certainly less ambivalence about economic issues and the war.
formal platform...
I still feel like this site is a wedge-driver. Should we as Christians not try the same approach I believe we need in politics? That liberals and conservatives need to come together? I feel that Christianity as a whole needs to come to a platform and hash issues out. It shouldn't be Leftist Christians and the Religious right arguing about who is right. We as a collectivity of Christians should be hashing this out. Regardless of denomination, common ground is needed between all Christians, not just Progressive Christians. Perhaps that is where we should be placing our efforts?
...
perhaps that makes me a progressive Christian?
...
perhaps it does. :)
Welcome to the group!!
perhaps
I believe Christians from across the political spectrum can and should come together on a whole host of issues.
I also believe that certain things we hear from the Christian Right need to be challenged. When these folks supportive pre-emptive war or tax cuts to the rich, we have to challenge them to ask how does the Bible support such positions.
So there's a balance in building the site between:
1. Progressives coming together to figure out how their faith relates to policy seeking to finding common ground amongst the broad spectrum of progressive mainline protestants, Catholics, evangelical and orthodox Christians. I feel like progressive know what they're against but don't often know what they're for. We're here to put together a forward looking agenda based on Jesus's call to make it on Earth as it is in heaven.
2. Connect with folks of other faiths or no faith at all to forward that progressive agenda.
3. Bringing Christians of different political perspectives together to find common ground on issues that we can work together on. This is definitely more of a secondary goal with this site, but a noble one that should be pursued.
YEAH JIM!!!
I am not sure if it will take two, three, or a million circles,
To provoke progressives to "do unto your brother as you would do unto yourself and take the action that is necessary to achieve that end"
And not just that, but also that we would do unto the least, for what ever we do or do not do unto them;
We do it or do not do it unto God.
What i read on this site is a lot of passion for many issues.
What i sense is that egos get in the way and we go astray.
What i hope is that we can move beyond trying to remove the splinters from each others eyes and build up The Body, for only in solidarity can we do anything.
Why not move beyond the unprovable and grace one another with love and full freedom to believe in miracle stories without condemnation, and focus on what Jesus commanded and what is required?
"The Peacemakers shall be called the children of God."
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
Building The Body
Thanks Eileen and I really like that part about "building the body". Thats what we are going for here isn't it? Building the body, making it strong. We underestimate our srength.
WE are the majority, not the Fundamentlist Right. Right wing Republican Fundamentalists are about 25% (+,-) by most estimates. Most estimates of "atheists" are anywhere from 2% to 10%. That means the majority of Americans believe in God , or are at least agnostics, and are not right wingers. We are anything from folks who do yoga and read Wayne Dwyer , Marianne Williamson, and Deepak Chopra, and go to service every once in a while, to true blue Evangelicals like the folks in Jim Wallis's crowd whose politics are Progressive. "We" are huge. How do we use that power effectively is the question. How can we move and mobilize that 65 to 70% of Americans? What role can Cross Left play?
Building The Body II
I see our greatest challenge to be an effective counter weight to the fundie Christians is the need to stop the bickering and agree that we will disagree on many issues, but we need to come together in unity on what we can agree upon and then offer the world a new way of seeing Jesus.
The Jesus we are offered by the right wing is a white bread little god that judges sexual preferences and seeks empire .
Reality is that Jesus was a social justice, radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish road warrior who rose up and challenged the job security of the Temple authorities by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the priests for ritual baths or sacrificing livestock to be OK with God; for God already LOVED them just as they were:
Sinners, poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Military Occupation.
What got Jesus crucified was disturbing the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces of his time, by teaching the subversive concept that Caesar only had power because God allowed it and that God preferred the humble sinner, the poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Occupation above the elite and arrogant !
Jesus remained NONVIOLENT and forgiving even while being mocked, whipped and nailed to a cross and he promised that it is the Peacemakers who are the children of God, not the peace-talkers, not the military occupiers and not those that judge the hearts of others, for God is the Judge of all and loves us all so much that He/She/??? can certainly handle the salvation of all, in anyway He/She/??? deems.
2,000 years ago The Cross had NO symbolic religious meaning.
When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me."
He was issuing a POLITICAL statement, for the main roads in Jerusalem were lined with crucified agitators, rebels, dissidents and any others who disturbed the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces.
My prayer for the New Year, is that we progressive Christians will be yeast and "My aim is to agitate & disturb people. I'm not selling bread, I'm selling yeast."
-Unamuno.
Eileen Fleming,
Reporter and Editor of
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu"
Missing the Whole Point?
Am I missing the whole point of Progressive Christianity by suggesting that we have two circles of influence?
Jim, how could you be
Jim, how could you be missing the whole point of progressive Christianity? You're such a good one.
Which isn't to say that I see your two circles as clearly as you do. I actually see the one broader circle as our progressive issues. And the abortion and gays circle as our response to the radical right.
I may be missing YOUR whole point (and the whole point of progressive Christianity? I think not! on either of us!) but I think we do really well when we stick to the issues that really matter to us. And we don't do well at all responding to the RR's issues.
I don't much want to dance to their tune. Seems like we done paid the fiddler, so let's dance to our own tune!