How Could Anyone Vote For McCain and The Republicans this election?
It really is unfathomable to me how anyone could vote Republican in this election cycle.
John McCain has tried to claim the mantel of change, but the economic crisis reminds us that McCain has given his full throated support for the deregulatory policy that festered greed and has led us to the brink. Most Americans are again being greeted with ridiculous stuff like lipstick on a pig, rather than real issues like $4 gas, the lack of health care, the fact that were still waging an unjust war in Iraq, all the while the richest among us continue to get richer and are expected to do less for the country through a tax reduction they don't need and didn't ask for. On all of the issues John McCain is on the wrong side of the American people so the smoke a mirrors swift boat attack politics gets thrown out and unfortunately some people bite.
John McCain will not launch a bold new energy policy, he will drill.
John McCain will not get us out of Iraq, he will stay.
John McCain will not guarantee affordable health insurance for every American, he will continue to let millions of our fellow citizens go uninsured.
John McCain will continue the Bush tax cuts to the richest 5% rather than asking for shared sacrifice in a time of war.
John McCain will put a Supreme Court justice on the bench who will be the key vote overturning Roe vs. Wade.
John McCain will not reform Washington. He has dozens of lobbyists on his staff and unlike the RNC and the McCain campaign, Obama told the DNC that no more special interest money will be accepted.
John McCain will not support an economy that works for all. Instead he'll give tax cuts to the rich while the rest of the country faces the greatest economic turmoil in a generation. If you want an economy that looked like the 1990s vote for the Democrats.
While both parties have their faults, the Republican Party, McCain included, have been on the side of the wealthy and on the wrong side of the majority of Americans on every major issue. This is an unfortunate position from my standpoint. The Republican Party is willing to bail out Wall Street, but not willing to ensure that every person has health insurance in this country. Republicans are willing to give tax cuts to rich people, while 13 million children go hungry in our country and 5 miilion children die due to hunger related diseases around the world. The Republican Party is willing to go war pre-emptively and refuses to an end a war that most Americans wanted to end when they realized the pretenses for the war were a sham. The Republican Party is willing to deregulate Wall Street, but not willing to regulate industry to stop pollution and climate change. The fact is that John McCain and his party on the wrong side of the American people on nearly every issue.
I know there are a lot of good people who are Republican, but on issue after issue their horse is running the wrong direction, away from the American people. 8 years of a Republican presidential control has led us to the brink of economic and environmental calamity. When I graduated from college during the Clinton years, life looked pretty good, now the future seems much more uncertain as a direct result of a failure in policy and leadership.
How anyone could vote to keep movin in the absolute wrong direction is beyond me.
- Stephen Rockwell's blog
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Please do not hit the reply button on the post. Start a new post
Byron and Gary,
You are both engaged in an excellent exchange, however, as you can see it's getting very hard to read. So, may I suggest, rather than hit the reply button on the post to which you wish to respond, start a new post. You can read the one you are responding to and reply. It'll keep your comments from getting too "squeezed" and thus less readable.
Pardon my selfishness but I am greatly enjoying the informed exchange and don't want to miss a thing.
Thank you gentlemen.
Rich
Byron...You Are Still Judging
Byron,
You said, "Some statistics state that 40% of people who sit in church pews are not born again Christians."
I have never been asked in a survey if I am born again and I don't personally know of anyone who has ever been asked to participate in such a survey. How about you? A statistic like that is unverifiable and somewhat pointless.
You said, "Iron sharpens iron,and one man sharpens another."
This verse is irrelevant to the subject of judging whether someone is a Christian or not. Jesus is the only One who gets to make that call. Therefore, wisdom is achieved by avoiding the pitfall of judging anyone. Byron, there is a place and a way for airing differences of doctrine, belief and practice among Christians that does not include judging anyone's place or value in the Kingdom of God.
You said, "You say you want to unity? Right now there are two America's."
Byron, we live in a pluralistic society regardless of what we may think about the intentions of the founding fathers. They were wise enough to craft the constitution in a way to accommodate a wide variety of people, their varying cultures and religions without feeling the need to mandate a codified legal system of uniformity in those areas. It appears that they did this intentionally to thwart any single group or mindset from dominating the rest. Freedom demanded this document to be written in such a manner so that the rights of even the minorities would be protected.
You said, "I want unity Gary around the innerrancy and authority of the scriptures."
Byron, then get used to disunity because this will never happen. The Lord nor the Bible has mandated such a notion. Our Christian unity is to be found only in our common faith in the person of Christ Jesus. Haven't you noticed that people simply cannot seem to come to a perfect consensus about interpreting the Bible? Do you want us all to believe and practice our faith exactly as you do? Would this bring a more perfect expression of heaven to Earth?
You said, "To just say you want unity and then stand up for killing baby's, confusing and corrupting children with alternative lifestyles (homosexuality) which is a basic tenet of the modern democrat party and contrary to plain scripture is disingenuous."
You are confusing politics and religion here. I am not aware of any political party that is a suitable vehicle for expressing Christianity. Why are you so obsessed with Democrats? What about Republicans...are they a satisfactory political party for Christians to endorse?
You said, "If I am a Christian worth my salt I will and should protest. I have a duty and responsibility to do so. Some people need to be challenged. How about some respect for biblicists?"
Some people do need to be challenged...you might even be one of them and perhaps that is why you are here. A true biblicist understands the priorities of God's heart and does not ever cross the line of judging his or her brothers and sisters. It seems that your criteria for what it means to be Christian has a lot more attached to it than what the gospel requires. Byron, what is the gospel of Jesus in your words and what is the bottom line definition of a Christian?
You said, "Lastly, we need to balance your statement (exhort us unto unity and to patiently bear with the perceived failings of fellow Christians. ) with "what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness."
Who on this site do you now judge to be unrighteous and lawless? You are the one who is recklessly persisting in judging the faith, worth and value of the writers on this site. You need to soften your approach a bit brother. I don't believe the Lord has authorized you to judge anyone in this world.
You said, "A wheel out of balance will wobble and vibrate. Maybe, people like me come around once in a while to put some counter weights on here and there?"
Byron, your comments are welcome and we all need more balance in our lives, but you diminish your influence here with harsh judgmental statements toward folks for having a different theological perspective than you. I am suggesting you first strive to find and establish some common ground in our shared faith and then feel free to challenge anyone here in any area of political or religious belief, values and practice. However, if you persist in assaulting people's precious faith, you are relegating yourself to the category of troll and your dogmatic opinions will only succeed in further marginalizing your position.
Gary
Judge yourself Gary
Gary
John 7:24
"Do not [Lev 19:15; Is 11:3; Zech 7:9; John 8:15] judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.
2 Cor 13:5
5Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith.(L) Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that(M) Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
John 12:48:
48"(A)He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; (B)the word I spoke is what will judge him at (C)the last day.
Matthew 7:14 ...the way is narrow that leads to life;and few are those who find it...16 "You will [Matt 7:20; 12:33; Luke 6:44; James 3:12] know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? ... 17 a good tree produces good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit...21 not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
2 Timothy 4:2 (Whole Chapter)
preach [Gal 6:6; Col 4:3; 1 Thess 1:6] the word; be ready in season and out of season; [1 Tim 5:20; Titus 1:13; 2:15] reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great [2 Tim 3:10] patience and instruction. 3For (G)the time will come when they will not endure (H)sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4and (I)will turn away their ears from the truth and (J)will turn aside to myths.
5But you, (K)be sober in all things, (L)endure hardship, do the work of an (M)evangelist, fulfill your (N)ministry.
Byron
Byron...Verse for Verse...Choosing Unity Over Judgment
Byron,
Below you will find a few scriptures that exhort us unto unity and some that rebuke judging one another. I believe that we as Christians are endowed with the ability to judge the worth of anything, but we are never to judge others. Remember the beam in our own eye before we pick at the speck in a brother's. Also, don't forget that Jesus told his disciples that He had sheep that they didn't know about.
1 Corinthians 4:3-5
I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
Romans 14:1
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.
Romans 14:4
4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Romans 14:10-13
10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God 13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
Romans 15:7
7Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1 Corinthians 3:3
You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?
Ephesians 4:2-3
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
Ephesians 4:32
Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
Philippians 2:2-4
then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Philippians 4:2
I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord.
Colossians 3:12-13
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Gary
Mending the Fabric of Society
Gary,
I have no right or interest in judging anyone. What I have tried to do is to get people to acknowledge and/or realize that their is a standard for personal and national conduct, a moral code (found in the bible). This moral code could be called the fabric of society. When evil doers rip it, someone needs to sew it back together again. When I and others try and repair it and/or get people to consider not ripping it anymore and maybe helping mend it, we are told we are destroying unity and being judgmental. I never set out to be some sort of reformer (seamstress) but I notice these huge rips and because I have such respect and love for the one who gave us the fabric (God) I just think someone should try to mend it or it will become worthless and be destroyed. Sadly, it seems many have no appreciation for repairing it or even having it at all anymore. In fact they surprisingly align themselves with the rip-ministers (moral terrorists). They seem to think that the fabric of society is an outmoded social construct anyway and not needed in a pluralistic, multicultural society where children take guns to school and shoot their classmates...
Byron
Mending the Rips
Byron,
I fully understand your desire to mend the rips in the moral fiber of our nation. Steve, who posted this original thread is operating from the same desire. He and others here obviously have different theological backgrounds than you. I think you could be more effective in dialoging with these Christians if you would simply accept the fact that not all people of faith believe the same.
The Republican party, led by George Bush, advertised themselves as the party that supports the constitution, Christian ethics, a strong national defense and the blue collar folks that make up the majority of America. Sadly, it didn't take eight years for it to become evident that their primary interests were quite the opposite on every count.
The shredding of the constitution by expanding the executive branch to the point of negating the other two arms of government successfully eliminated the checks and balances our founding fathers saw as essential. Christian ethics went out the window with the lies that deceived our nation into an unnecessary, greed driven war that has weakened our national security and ruined any Christian image we once had in the sight of the rest of the world. The salt of the earth, blue collar folks who supported the GOP for the last eight years has been left in the cold as their corporate provided jobs vanished over seas, their health care plans were lost or never materialized, their investments destroyed and their hopes shattered. Eight years of Republican domination has conclusively revealed the soulless, calloused, deceiving philosophy and methodology of Rovian/Bush neo-conservative politics.
The GOP gave nothing of substance to the Christian segment of this country who helped elect them in 2000 and 2004. Many of that voting demographic had to change sides to help Obama to win the presidency. I think the reasons for that are plain and simple. They see Obama as a man of Christian faith that has lifted their hopes after a devastating let down from Bush and company. Obama just might actually prove to have the moral substance to deliver what Bush couldn't and never intended to.
Byron, I like the metaphorical approach you take regarding mending the rips in the fabric of our nation. However, it is evident that you are confused as to who the enemy is when you imply that the folks here at Crossleft are working in collusion with those who have ripped our nation apart. I think you might want to take a step back and look at the last eight years and objectively view the results of Republican dominated rule. Now, tell me who the enemies of democracy and faith are.
Gary
Through the looking glass
Gary
I won't disagree with your assessment of Rove/Bush. History may cast them in a better light, but we will have to wait and see. Our dialogue has helped me to at least understand our countries politics from another Christians perspective. While fault and deficiency's can be found in both major American party's, I still believe the Christian church (true believers from every persuasion) are the ones who have allowed this country to decline. We have been diluted, emasculated and marginalized. We have bought into the idea of separation of church and state which is paramount to saying separation of morality from government. This notion has also found it's way into business, Wall Street and main street. It is evident in the schools, in the movies and media in general. We have been made to be apologetic about our "Christian roots." You see I think the solution for our present problems isn't just going off in a pluralistic direction, but staying with our Christian roots. Moral absolutes and ultimate truth do exist. We can be certain about our faith in Jesus and the bible. Children need to know and hear that they are special because they are made in the image of God. They are not animals to just eat and drink and be merry for tomorrow they die. Bible study in school would help students to develop good citizenship and sense of worth and basic morality (values). As Thomas Jefferson said: "I have always said, and will always say, that studious perusal of the sacred volume will make us better citizens." – He was president of the Washington D.C. public school where bible reading was part of the curriculum.
Evolution it seems has become not only a theory about the origins of life, but how social life happens now and forever. America has bought into the idea that change is normal even desired (except global warming). We seem to always be playing musical chairs and upset the fruit basket. As technology is always offering new improved products, we have translated this into our notions of God and country. Pluralism is bandied about as if it is just part of social evolution even though:The political theory of pluralism holds that political power in society does not lie with the electorate, nor with a small concentrated elite, but is distributed between a wide number of groups. These groups may be trade unions, interest groups, business organizations, and any of a multitude of formal and informal coalitions. Are we then segregating America and creating new tribalism? It seems the electorate (voters) only exist to be manipulated by millions of media dollars by political consortium's. This will only serve to further alienate, disillusion and disenfranchise Christians like me who see "my country tis of thee" disappearing...
Byron
Inerrancy of the Bible
Byron,
When you say the "Bible" is the inerrant word of God, which "Bible" are you speaking of; the King James, New International, or what?
Rich
Inerrancy is in the original language
Rich,
Good idea about a new post. I just try and respond to new posts to me as my email informs me when they happen and I have a little time. So, if you start a new one I will most likely respond.
As far as inerrancy goes the best answer I have heard so far is it refers to the original languages. The word Theopneustos found in 2Tim 3:16 means God breathed. Scripture is the product of His creative breath.
I use the New American Standard because it is translated as closely as possible from the original languages. I grew up on the King James version, which I still like to read from.
I have a pocket size electronic New International version which I do word studies on. You can follow a word or phrase from the beginning of the bible to the end. I feel by doing this I am tuning in to the "mind of God" so to speak. I seldom take one verse and develop a major opinion but when many scriptures point in the same direction I develop a lot of boldness and confidence that I am "rightly dividing the word of truth."
Byron
My choice of Biblical knowledge
Bryon,
I'll reply here simply to respond this comment. I plan a new blog post soon on the origins of the Bible and it's various interpretations. The version I use is the "Holy Bible: From the Ancient Eastern Text. George Lamsa's Translation From The Aramaic of the Peshitta"
The late Dr. Lamsa was a native Aramaic speaker, who spoke the language almost exactly as Jesus spoke it. He spent 35 years translating Aramaic into English, thus avoiding and correcting some of the errors he saw having arisen from the Greek into Latin into German and English translations.
One notable example. "It is easier for a rope to pass through the eye of a needle, that it is for a rich man to enter into heaven." As Aramaic had a smaller number of letters, they used a system of dots, placed either above or below a word. Somehow, a dot got misplaced and the word "rope" was mistranslated a "camel". Rope into needles makes a lot more sense to me than passing a camel, both difficult, but a rope has a direct relationship to a needle.
Thus we can see that while the Bible may be the inspired word of God, it has been mistranslated due to the inablity of 100's of fallible humans to accurately pass it down thru the ages, from one language to another. So my learned friend, do be very careful re: any claims of Biblical inerrancy.
I enjoy your posts and look forward to more lively interchanges. You certainly seem to have stirred the Rev. Gary Vance's juices! All to the better for our community say I. IMO, your insights are well reasoned and respectful, a welcomed addition to our discourses.
Rich
Bush/ McCain "old" moderate democrats
I see I am among faithful democrats who don't even recognize McCain as one of their own. Neither he nor Bush are conservatives. Bush spent more money faster than any democrat ever did. His only two democrat "sins" were that he was against abortion which this site claims to disdain, and he went two bridges to far across the Tigris and Euphrates.
I would like to hear just one Christian from the progressive side of things to decry the system that creates moral confusion and corruption of the nations young,
which creates the life dilemma (abortions) in the first place. Jesus elevates the protection of children to the highest level in [Matt 18:6; Luke 17:2; 1 Cor 8:12] Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.
The modern democrat (progressive) party bears no resemblance to the old God and country democrats. Ronald Reagan said he didn't leave the democrat party they left him. McCain, I feel could say the same thing. The modern Republican party is just the old democrat party. Name tags like "Christian," "democrat," don't mean much anymore. The modern democrats are just plain evil. They have turned bad into good and good into evil... Even so bold as to make vice a virtue...How can you support that unless you have lost your way?
One last point: Do we make the bible fit our culture or make our personal culture fit the bible? As Joshua said, Joshua 24:15
"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or [Judg 6:10] the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Byron, Consider this.
Welcome here. You raise good points. In reply to your comment that the modern Democrats are just evil, consider this wisdom from Paul.
"For those who desire to be rich fall into temptations and snares, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts which drown men in degeneration and destruction.
"For the love of money is the root of all evil; and there are some men who have coveted it and thereby erred from the faith, and have brought to themselves many sorrows."
1 Corinthians 6:9&10
Does this not sound like such entities as Enron, WorldCom, Health South, and such individuals as Jack Abramoff, Tom De Lay, Randy Cunningham, Bernie Ebbers at. al? All good free marketers, all who now have shown the moral inadequacy of Milton Friedman's economic philosophy.
To me it is the free market Republicans who have taken over the GOP and sold it's soul to Satan for a few shekels.
Rich
The rest of the story-sub prime-Acorn...
Rich,
Thanks for taking the time. For one thing greed and murder are two different things. Greed can be confessed and money returned. Killing 48 million baby's can never be undone. Confusing and corrupting children and stealing there innocents can never be undone either. Once innocents is lost it is gone.
Greed is the root of all evil and leads to much personal bondage for those afflicted. Being poor and overly concerned about our wants beyond our basic needs can also become a spiritual problem and defeat us/steal our joy.
To attack free enterprise is to attack America. Yet this is what Senator Obama and Acorn did to the banking industry. This affirmative action style intrusion into bank loan qualification procedures was like injecting someone with the Aids Virus. It forced banks that wanted to grow to make so many sub prime loans to people who really couldn't afford to buy a house. It is like injecting the virus then blaming the victim for dying of the common cold. Not fair sir.
The Democrats don't like this country. They would rather "take it down" and start over with a totally secular, godless, loveless, culture of death. Byron
Byron, You said, "The
Byron,
You said, "The Democrats don't like this country. They would rather "take it down" and start over with a totally secular, godless, loveless, culture of death."
This is about the most absurd drivel I have seen posted on this site...and I have seen some drivel. Are you getting enough sleep? Get some help.
Gary
A Progressive Christian responds to "Honorcode"
Honorcode, welcome to Crossleft . it seems as if you don’t like us but want to pontificate and perhaps debate some. I will oblige you.
No, I didn’t recognize McCain as a Democrat because he had an “R” after his name and voted with the Republican President, George Bush over 90% of the time. He holds the Republican values of deregulation dear, just as most Republicans do, and that has got us into the mess we are into. Bush hates God’s green beautiful earth, just as many Republicans do, and even as we write this, he is working feverishly to do more environmental destruction before he leaves office. Jesus tells us to be kind to the least among us and we told biblically over and over to be good to the elderly, children, widows, prisoners, the foreigner in our land, and to have mercy on the sinner. McCain and Bush are both typical Republicans in that they despise the least among us and want to give even more to the wealthy among us.They want to give oil companies huge subsidies and tax dollars but opposed health care for children. Yes it is terrible when we mistreat our children. When we put the needs of the wealthy and the multi-national corporation ahead of the needs of children. What would Jesus do, Honorcode? Would he give our tax dollars for children’health care or would he give it to the oil copmanies and give the rich bigger tax breaks? The Republcians want to give those tax dollars to the rich.
I am not going to say the Republicans are just plain evil, as you did to the Democrats. That is the kind of thinking that is polarizing the country. The good book tells us that as we judge, so shall we be judged, and you seem to be a hard and harsh judge I will just say I don’t agree with the way republicans govern and I feel the democrats best represent a Christian perspective.
.
You bring up the tired old abortion issue. It is like the last cry of the right and the self appointed righteous among us. Why don’t we stop using it as a divisive wedge issue and start cooperating and reducing abortion? We have debated it for years and divided into “the pro-life” and “pro-choice” camps. The right’s straw man is always Roe v Wade. We now have 7 republicans on the Supreme court and we had a Republican President and congress for 6 of the last 8 years. Yet, roe v Wade still stands. The abortion issue is just a tool used to get working class people to vote against their own self interests. Is there any point that you figure out it is a con job? If Roe v Wade goes down, abortion is a state issue. There will be a patch work of laws. If a woman wants an abortion it will just be a matter of picking the state that best suits her needs. We have to change people’s hearts and attitudes. Some of the country’s with the most liberal abortion laws and best sex education, have the lowest abortion rates. The country’s with the worst sex education and the strictest abortion laws, have the most abortion.
Why don’t we examine the reasons that women say they get an abortion and start working on that? Economics and time off from work is an often mentioned reason that young women seek an abortion. Perhaps we need more help in the financial area for pregnant women. Abstinence only sex education doesn’t work. Sarah Palin’s pregnant high school daughter could be a poster girl for that. We need good sex education. Yes I say that as a Christian.It is better they get good sex education than abort.
As far as corrupting our young goes, I think things really starting going own hill under the great actor from Hollyweird, Ronald Reagan .The eighties were called the “me generation” and that was when the Republican creed of selfishness, greed, hatefulness, intolerance, hedonism, disdain for the poor and the least among us , really started to take hold. It has now come full harvest. There is hope though, a whole new generation of Christians aren’t buying the tired old hateful judgmental rhetoric of the right. A new day is unfolding. Many Christians are starting to take Christ’s words seriously and are starting to reject the greed that has so carefully been cultivated by mass media in the last twenty eight years. Mass media cultivates that selfish need for greed, and the desire to buy, buy, buy.It was during the Reagen years that the “market” became our national god and purchasing beyond our means became the methodology for our madness. Spirituality became secondary.You want to hear a "progressive christian" decry what is being done to a young? Here it is:
In the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord, often called the Prince of Peace, I decry the evils of hate, intolerance,violence, greed, and selfishness so carefully cultivated in this country among our young by the powers that be.I despise the idea of our young being sent off to far away lands to steal and control the natural resoureces of other lands.I pray that through the power of Our Lord we come to our senses and reject so much of what has been taught as truth in this country. May we save this earth, God's creation, from those who would destroy it and may we look out for the least amongst us, for in them, Christ abides.
I encourage you to respond and hang around awhile, We are not so bad once you get to know us.
The bottom line...
Jim, Thanks for taking the time to write. My Grandpa was a democrat back when it was still the God and country party of FDR. When they still looked out for the little guy. Now, the party has been taken over by evolutionary, secular atheists (what fellowship hath light with darkness, by the way?) who kill the little guy (baby's) in the name of "choice". (Hitler was pro choice) They don't like our Christian roots, don't like the constitution, don't believe in the family and use the ACLU and courts to threaten people like the SS troops of Germany to persecute (steal domestic tranquility) churches, preachers, home schoolers and judges... they are trying to expunge everything Christian from our culture. They were even so bold several years ago to try and eliminate Christmas as an example. They preach tolerance, a social gospel, fear of climate change (the sky is falling) alternative lifestyles and now socialism and new tribalism instead of Americanism. In short they are conducting a slow revolution and are unpatriotic, brainwashing the young and other impressionable adults with the subliminal message "NO YOU CAN'T, NO YOU CAN'T," without BIG DADDY GOVERNMENT.
As far as the rich in our country. I was feeling good about myself until Obama started making me feel bad for not being rich. On one hand he decries the well to do (who employ most of us) then makes the rest of us feel deprived because we don't have what they have. Truth is Americans are the most spoiled people on the planet because we have the most. That is why we have a border problem...
Democrats have sucked the virtue right out of this culture through irreverent, irresponsible and reprehensible immoral free speech. They are morally clueless (not knowing right from wrong, or not caring which is also the definition for the criminal mind by the way) that virtue is the mother of freedom and liberty. If you destroy Christian virtue you destroy America. John Adams said, the founders had created a constitution for a virtuous people. I don't believe a representative republic can long exist without Christian virtue because "we the people," will send into government others like us. Liberals have yelled for years separation of church and state. ( a misnomer) Now we see what happens when you remove morality from homes, businesses, banks (sub prime loans...), the stock market and government (the truth is Barny Frank and other democrats resisted regulation). Fear prevails not "In God We Trust."
The war: What would you have done after 9/11 if you were president? Nothing, like Clinton? Afghanistan only, like me? Bush got some bad intelligence and bad cabinet advice. As sad as war death is, democrats and their accomplices (those who vote and empower them) kill 4000 baby's every day in this country. Think what 48 million people (those killed by knives and brain sucking machines) buying, selling, creating jobs, paying taxes, buying homes etc would have done for this economy? Talk about a stimulus package...not to mention removing 6 million gallons of innocent blood guilt from this land.
Jim, The progressively immoral party qualifies for the Antichrist. Lord have mercy and raise up a deliverer to save the children from corruption and keep them from murdering their own baby's. Amen I must stop here for now...Byron
Hello Byron and Thanks for Posting
Hello Byron,
Thanks for posting on Crossleft. I can see that you are a bit distraught that America is suddenly shifting away from the neo-conservative dominated policies of the current Republican manifestation of government. I personally thank God for it. Many of us have prayed and hoped for just such a thing. Your broad generalizations and sweeping demonization of Democrats typifies the rhetoric that has contributed to the acute polarization of our nation and the Church. It is time for a reality check for everyone regardless of which side of the divide we find ourselves on.
You say, "Democrats have sucked the virtue right out of this culture through irreverent, irresponsible and reprehensible immoral free speech. They are morally clueless (not knowing right from wrong, or not caring which is also the definition for the criminal mind by the way)"
You have obviously bought into the propaganda of the right that blames every collective moral digression of our nation on liberals or Democrats. This ploy, utilized by the Rush Limbaughs and James Dobsons of the world, has only served the purpose of further dividing us as Americans and Christians. Do you believe in the biblical concept of original sin? If so, shouldn't you place the blame for the gross human tendency toward sinful actions on Adam rather than liberals? There is no biblical indication that Adam and Eve were Democrats. Byron, Democrats don't have an exclusive patent on sin. It seems that plenty of Republicans also stand in need of the mercy, grace and salvation offered by Jesus.
You said, "Bush got some bad intelligence and bad cabinet advice."
I can only presume that you are not referring to a genetic trait when you mention Bush and intelligence in the same sentence (sorry, I couldn't resist that one).
You said, "In short they are conducting a slow revolution and are unpatriotic, brainwashing the young and other impressionable adults..."
Democrats don't have an exclusive patent on propaganda anymore than they do on immorality. Byron, diversity is one of the most appealing features of this great nation. Freedom must include the rights of individuals to pursue their own paths,within the bounds of law, whether we personally agree with them or not. It's time for us all to begin to look for common ground and pursue unity in the areas where we can do the most good in this life that God has given us. Christians of every stripe should be coalescing around the issues where justice and mercy are missing and stop focalizing on pointless arguments that produce only hate and division.
Thanks again for posting and I pray the Lord grants you an eye opening experience in your conversations here.
Gary
Hello Gary : Regarding the Nation
Hello Gary,
The Google search that brought me to this site was a long held belief that it wasn't democrats or republicans who have given this country away but preachers and Christians in general.
If you try to marginalize my biblical world view by associating me with Rush Limbaugh, James Dobson and the "right" you will be disappointed.
You said, I am (bit distraught that America is suddenly shifting away from the neo-conservative dominated policies of the current Republican manifestation of government.) No, the "greatest generation" (so called) came home from WWII rested on their laurels, worked the American dream and lost the social revolution. So no, I am not just upset because the republicans lost this cycle. Most people don't even know their was a social revolution.(sexual 60's, 50% divorce rate even among Christians, Barna research shows so-called Christians sin to the same degree as non Christians.) etc etc etc...
Yes, I believe in original sin. We are all sinners from Adam and Eve till now that is why Jesus had to come into the world he created (John 1) to saves us. I don't blame political parties I blame us Christians for not being "salt and light."
As far as (I can only presume that you are not referring to a genetic trait when you mention Bush and intelligence) W has good genes he just wasn't wise enough to be president yet. Senator Obama, is more of an intellectual but is also not wise enough... yet.
You said, (diversity is one of the most appealing features of this great nation.) The word "diversity" has become a code word for anything goes, which is not a Christian concept.
Lastly, (Christians of every stripe should be coalescing around the issues where justice and mercy are missing and stop focalizing on pointless arguments that produce only hate and division.) Truth is the left has been using "hate speech" on Bush for eight long years. To be fair he should be given credit for something once in a while even if it is small.
I believe that good and bad ideas exist in all the parties including the green party. If we could take the best ideas from wherever they originate (try and eliminate or neutralize the harmful ones) and not be afraid to give credit where credit is due then maybe positive long term "change" can occur for the benefit of the unborn, the young and the old. Christians can have a positive impact in government and from Wall Street to main street if we possess discernment and use it wisely. Byron
Byron...First Impressions
Hello again,
You know how first impressions can sometimes be misleading? Your first responses did seem a bit right wingish to me, but I can see a little better now where you are coming from.
You said, "...it wasn't democrats or republicans who have given this country away but preachers and Christians in general." You also said, "I don't blame political parties I blame us Christians for not being "salt and light."
I tend to agree with you there...I would be curious to see what you think about a post I have run here entitled "Where are the Prophets?" http://www.crossleft.org/node/6608
I apologize for the unwarranted joke about Bush's level of intelligence...sometimes my sense of humor gets me in trouble.
I know what you mean about code words...however, I was not using the word "diversity" in that context. From my perspective, there is no homogeneous America or American culture. We are the "melting pot" of the world and always have been. That's one of the qualities that makes us unique and wonderful as a nation. Christianity is the dominant religion here, but not the sole religion. Diversity amongst Christians is like a patch work quilt forming a collection of expressions of our diverse understandings of Jesus, tradition, and the Bible. I think you will discover that Crossleft is a diverse collection of friends and writers who span a broad spectrum of belief and practice as Christians. In that light...welcome...your opinions and understanding are valued.
You said, "Truth is the left has been using "hate speech" on Bush for eight long years. To be fair he should be given credit for something once in a while even if it is small."
Byron, you have spoken some truth here...Bush has been much maligned by the left. Of course, that goes with the territory of being President (ask Bill Clinton). In fact, the right continues to blame Clinton for everything from 9/11 to the recent economic collapse. I agree with Obama when he said, "It is time for the Bush administration and the Republican Party to own their failures." My daughter asked me once, "Dad, is there anything Bush has done that you agree with?" I had to think a bit before I remembered that he did propose a form of amnesty for the 13 million illegals living among us and I felt like he got that one right as a Christian leader.
I agree with you in hoping for Christians to have a greater impact in all dimensions of our society.
Gary
Owning failures-Obama
Hi Gary,
Sometimes, the past number of years I have found myself singing that old spiritual-Nobody knows de trouble I seen
Nobody knows but Jesus
Nobody knows de trouble I seen
Glory Hallelujah!
I think it strange too that here I am a white guy singing it. Also strangely appropriate in an ironic sense because I feel the country is as divided about the values being presented to the youth and the subsequent path to abortion/ infanticide as it was before the civil war. Some slaves were killed then but now 48 million have perished-4000 more just today. Also, strange that the children of the slaves now support a political party that brought this other kind of playboy slavery upon them/us in the name of freedom and liberty and now tolerance.
I took a break here and read your "Where are the Prophets" post. My first thought is what Jesus said, "No prophet is without honor except in his own country." Maybe, that is why we have none, because they would rather have honor than speak the whole counsel of God Almighty? Mostly preachers don't preach because of security. If they say what really needs to be said public school teachers will stop coming to church. Parents who love the big yellow school buses and sports for their boys etc will be offended and not come...Offerings will suffer, people will agitate for a new preacher.
We have lost the culture by teaching evolution to the young. Teachers and then professors overwhelmed young minds who were to intellectually immature to defend their families faith and values. All of this at a time when the hormones hit full force and then they give them secular sex ed and condoms. Movie/media producers ARE
preaching the false prophets messages and have a strange wall of (free speech)protection around them. To criticize a public school except for grades is unpatriotic and "real" preachers won't go there. No one seems to realize that these kids grow up to be voters and our future leaders...Our Christian heritage is removed from textbooks by revisionist historians who do reveal the dirt they have dug up on the founding fathers.
Well, more could be said but I need to close for now. As you know Senator Obams's preacher said recently, "Not God bless America, God damn America." But I think the solution is not more damnation although we deserve plenty maybe for our national sins but I think we as a people should Bless God America instead (by repenting of our wrongs and then doing what is morally right...) then maybe we could think about singing that old song God bless America... Byron
.
So many questions, Byron...
... and so few certainties.
It's always hard to talk across the gaps of differing assumptions. We probably share a lot of commitments and values, but those areas of agreement can easily be obscured when some of our assumed certainties clash.
I, for one, take evolution for granted as a foundational element of the entire scientific enterprise that has helped us to understand more and more about the cosmos and the nature of nature. The idea that science also reveals to us something of the nature of God is an old one, and many scientists still think that way. And many Christians who are not scientists think that the idea of evolution doesn't pose any faith problems for us. An obvious historical parallel is the Copernican view of the solar system. Only a very few Christians are holdouts on that one and still consider the revolution of the earth around the sun to be un-Biblical and anti-Biblical. In the end, most of those who oppose evolution and other scientific concepts wind up accepting all the fruits of the science that uses those concepts.
Just focusing on evolution for the moment, I'd like to understand why you think that we have 'lost the culture' by teaching evolution to the young. Two of my grandchildren, ages 12 and almost 9, live on my block and are being home-schooled (but not for religious reasons). Their knowledge of biology, including human reproduction and general evolution, is very impressive -- they're getting much more than they would have in the school system. And their values seem to be unimpaired and maturing nicely.
As with all science, we teach that "this is what most scientists think at this time". We subscribe to the UK journal, New Scientist, so they're always learning about new things that have been found that require changes or adjustments to earlier findings and hypotheses. Details about evolutionary sequences and links keep changing, but so far nothing has come along to challenge the basic concepts that I first learned in college so long ago.
What are your thoughts on what the chain of causality is that links the teaching of evolution to bad outcomes in the general culture? From my point of view, most of the bad stuff has to do with the injustices built into our political economy. The big exploiters of sexuality, for instance, are the business corporations who flood the media with sexual images in order to sell things, and thereby influence children's mindsets and expectations. When it comes to promoting the kinds of irresponsible behaviors that I assume we both deplore, I think that the commercial media are much more effective than secular education. I suspect that secular education tends to work against the messages of the media, in that 'responsible behavior' is education's desired outcome.
There are several other questions I'd like to ask you, but it's probably best to focus on one thing at a time.
One thing though -- about the Rev. Jeremiah Wright. To get the full significance of that famous sound-bite, I think it's necessary to finish the rest of the sentence and the paragraph that followed. A key sentence, after the first "God damn..." was "God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."
To me, that sounds very much like some of my favorite prophets in the Hebrew Bible. Blessings and curses -- for cause -- are part of our tradition.
The Rev. Wright ended that 2003 sermon with this: "Where governments fail, God never fails. When God says it, it’s done. God never fails. When God wills it, you better get out the way, cause God never fails. When God fixes it, oh believe me it’s fixed. God never fails. Somebody right now, you think you can’t make it, but I want you to know that you are more than a conqueror through Christ. You can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.”
The source for the quotes (and for other long excerpts from the sermon) is Anderson Cooper's blog: http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/21/the-full-story-behind-wright’s-“god-damn-america”-sermon/
Wikipedia also has some good material on other aspects of the Rev. Wright's preaching and other work.
I can disprove evolution-next question
wpeltz, Thanks for taking the time. You know basic premises are important. For instance my premise is that the bible is Gods inerrant word to us. It is history from his perspective not ours. As a Christian I have always had a simple child like faith- I just believe the word no matter what current science says, theologians, philosophers or others... Come to think of it that is what Jesus wants Matthew 18:3 "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
I say always, but when I was a first year college student taking a philosophy of religion course I was temporarily derailed spiritually. Since then I have stuck close to Gods word and I have never questioned it since.
Evolution didn't happen because the bible says God created us in His image. Also, he created the animals and had Adam name them. A single celled (creature ?) can't know anything much less name anything. However, I can disprove evolution from pure logic. There are no "missing links" by the way. In order for evolution to work every male and female of every plant, insect and human would have to "change" in a sexually accommodating way in order for sex and reproduction to happen. The odds of doing this over and over billions of times and for every species is beyond imagining. Not to mention the food chain which requires creatures both feeding off of or being food for others in an always balanced way otherwise extinction...
But logic doesn't seem to enter into the equation when people are trying to disprove God, accountability for actions and a code of conduct beyond themselves.
I see the high priests (producers) of media as just the "end game" for a "one world system" which counts on government schools (the great melting pot) blending the students of other races, cultures and religions and turning them into one secularized (non-religious) evolution believing humanist. The United States has really become the United Nations... The social engineers (Liberals, secularists, homosexuals, evolutionists, humanists ) know that true believers in Christ and the bible stand in the way of "reform" or "change". We must decrease so they can increase. They have the children and unlike Japan they haven't awakened the sleeping giant.
Yes, the media makes money from there music, books, software and films etc. I am not against them making a profit. However, silencing preachers with "separation of church and state" while expanding free speech expression for those who pander to mans basic instincts is wrong. Pornography is the bible of the serial rapist/murderer. Lust tears down while love builds up.
Last thought for today. Chaos begets more chaos. Order begets order. Design is everywhere in our world and universe. Extremely intelligent designs boggle my mind and cause me to worship the creator and give Him the praise He so richly deserves. Deep sea electric light emitting fish for one example...
Point excepted on Rev. Wright. I suspected as much from the beginning and said so. Why would Senator Obama throw him over board for political expediency when he agrees with him though?
There was another point I wanted to address but it has escaped me. Have a good day. Byron
Not so fast, Byron, to the next question....
...since there's some unfinished business with the question of evolution plus several other things you put out there that flew by very quickly.
Back to that first point about basic premises. I think it's a key to everything else. The problem we face, you and I, is how do we talk -- or can we talk -- as fellow Christians despite our vast differences on so many things. One of the beauties of The Church as I've experienced it is that we get to spend time with some people with whom we'd otherwise never choose to spend any time at all. In some cases, I've become very good friends with people whose political and religious orientations I can't accept and who also can't accept mine. Yet we came to appreciate something in each other. I like the Body of Christ imagery -- we are members of each other and members, diverse though we be, of the one Body of Christ, as hard as that may be to define or discern.
So, first, our premises about the Bible. I see the scriptures as records of human ideas about the meaning of things, full of bits of history, myth, mythologized history, speculation, wisdom, and the marks of intense spiritual experience. My own "becoming like little children" experience was in giving in to and accepting a revelatory conversion experience that overpowered my rational analysis of the experience both during it and afterwards. To each his own.
As for evolution, what I have read, studied, and handled (via plaster casts) makes sense to the rational mind with which I, like you, am endowed. Doesn't the Copernican theory pose a problem for inerrancy? Is that a problem for you? (If not, why not?)
There are a couple of things you wrote that I don't understand. No 'missing links'? The fossil record appears to be strewn with them. And every time one is found it creates at least two new missing links. (If form X is found to be intermediate between forms A and B, then there will be new gaps between A and X and between X and B. And there will always be gaps because relatively few corpses become fossilized and there are so many branching lines of descent.)
Your example of pure logic went over my head, literally. I'm not sure what you mean by every organism having to "'change' in a sexually accommodating way". The way the theory goes is that change occurs through small changes in single individuals who introduce their genetic variations into a "gene pool". Those variations spread or are extinguished over time in the ongoing and changing gene pool through the pressures of 'natural selection' as expressed in differences in reproductive success. There's no requirement that each individual must change in sync with all the other individuals in a breeding population -- if that's what your sentence indicates.
Also, there's the matter of the food chain. The feeding off of and being food for others isn't always balanced. Extinction occurs. Balance can be destroyed by the reduction or extinction of a key link in the food chain, so that many species might disappear due to some kind of breaking of the chain. Eco-systems are eventually a sometime thing.
This takes me back to the question in my previous post: "What are your thoughts on what the chain of causality is that links the teaching of evolution to bad outcomes in the general culture?" The closest you got to that was "But logic doesn't seem to enter into the equation when people are trying to disprove God, accountability for actions and a code of conduct beyond themselves." But I see evolutionary theory as having no intrinsic connection with attempts to disprove God. Evolutionary theory, as I understand it, has nothing to say against accountability for actions or against codes of conduct. To the contrary, codes of conduct fit in nicely as adaptive mechanisms for the maintenance of social groups within which people are nurtured, survive, and reproduce.
There's more that you've written that I have responses to. But I'd like to work through these first bits first.
Except about Obama throwing the Rev. Wright "overboard for pollitical expediency". You nailed it. I think that's all it was: political expediency. Explaining and justifying liberation theologies isn't something that goes over easily anywhere, much less in a political campaign, much less in a presidential campaign when all the forces of polarization are ready to pounce on an easily demonizable black preacher. No credit to Obama in that. Pragmatism and accommodationism come first. And who knows what he really thinks about liberation theology?
Peace, Bill
Ancient Magnolia leaf-DNA
Steve,
A web site I have found useful in the evolution controversy is http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v13/i2/dna.asp No doubt you have heard of the exciting magnolia leaf discovered recently in a clay layer radiometric dated at 17- 20 million years! DNA was extracted amazingly and very close to magnolias today. Also, an interesting site for evolution http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-research.html#magnolia
Reading these two sites conclusions, brings me to the point from our last conversation about how basic premises affect your conclusions of the facts. Einstein and other famous scientists in the past were able to make extraordinary discoveries exactly because they believed in a world of order and intelligence and that you could hypothesize from the known into the unknown with confidence. Those who subscribe to "chaos theory" (evolution-out of chaos comes order) cannot do this to the same degree.
The magnolia leaf is important in that it shows hardly any "change" (evolution) in 17 million years. However, I believe the earth is really only 6000 years old. The magnolia leaves were still green. Hmmm They had to be buried quickly- maybe a flood did it. (Noahs world wide flood) A lot is proved by one small find.?
To explain my male/female changing together analogy to disprove evolution. Maybe, it is only transparent to me. Wouldn't be the first time. I am talking location-design- function of the sex organs. If one or the other isn't in the right location or any of the three are off of normal it (sex) isn't going to happen. Not to mention inclination or desire for sex. One has to only think of all the Viagra commercials which try to "correct" deficiencies. According to evolutionists there were no University trained chemists running around after all of the "changing organisms" for all those millions of years trying to help things along...
Evolution is atheism. It reduces us to smart animals. Survival of the fittest / the law of tooth and fang...are the rules of the world. Kids are smarter than we give them credit. They connect the dots after taking biology and science where evolution "theory" is presented as facts. If they grow up in churches that just ignore it or try and accommodate "millions of years" into their biblical teaching of Genesis then they have sufficiently undermined the accuracy and dependability of the Gods word to make it of little to no effect in their personal lives and for sure when it comes to questions of science...
Have a good day. Byron
A 6000 Thousand Year Old Earth?
Byron,
You say, "However, I believe the earth is really only 6000 years old."
The Bible gives us the Genesis account of creation. Nowhere in scripture does it then tell the reader to do the math to determine the age of the Earth. Dating the age of the Earth based on scripture is profoundly presumptuous and violates basic accepted fundamentalist principles of Bible interpretation. The Bible was never intended to be a science text book, nor does scripture claim it to be. The Bible also does not claim to offer a clear chronology of human history. Why do you make claims for the Bible that it does not make for itself and then judge others as atheistic because they believe something different than you on a subjective matter that no human fully understands? What does the differing views on the origin of living and inanimate matter have to do with Who Jesus is?
What is your definition of evolution? The basic premise of the word is the idea that living things change. Few people would deny that living things have changed through the millenniums of time. I presume that your objection is to the idea that evolution some how excludes God from the process? Why must that be true? Can't God do things however He chooses?
On the other hand, I think the problem many evolutionists have is when they try to teach the origin of species theory as fact. The idea that living things somehow randomly emerged from a cosmic stew and then slowly evolved from one species of life to the next takes much more faith to believe than the Genesis account of "In the beginning..."
The undeniable fact is...no one knows for sure except God Himself. Why don't we leave this mystery in His capable hands and move on to more important matters such as what can we do to be better stewards of the green Earth we call home regardless of how it got here?
Gary
Adam to Jesus-genealogy disproves evolution
Gary,
The Jews were/are meticulous and thorough. This may be the reason they were Gods chosen people because He wanted the facts written down and accurate.
You said, "The Bible also does not claim to offer a clear chronology of human history." However, Matt 1:1 says "the book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ... Luke 3:23-38 shows his family tree back to Adam.
Why is the genealogy important and the 6000 year age of the earth? Because details of peoples lives and life spans are included and it becomes historical documentation of people, events, places and God himself. It really is the history of the Creator and his creation. We have an opportunity to "get to know" the God of the universe through the eyes, ears and pen of people down through the ages. Innate in every person is a desire to know why we exist and to know of this God.
He has revealed himself in various ways and lastly through his own Son, who is the express image of himself. John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? (A)He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
You said, "What is your definition of evolution?" My answer: There is no evolution to discuss. If you accept the bible account God made complete animals, plants and people. There are two books involved in this question. The bible whose author is God and "Origin of the Species" which is written by a man. Since, Darwin wasn't there and God was, I will go with God.
You said, "and move on to more important matters such as what can we do to be better stewards of the green Earth we call home regardless of how it got here? I say knowing when, why and how we got here is important because it helps us to know where to go from here. In practical terms I was an organic farmer in another life in Montana over 10 years ago. Byron
flat out ignorance
This is just ignorant frankly.
The earth is not 6,000 years old. The fossil record proves that without any shadow of a doubt. This isn't theory...these are facts. Astronomy offers additional facts about the origen of the universe and the planet. Geology tells us the age of some of our rock formations and mountains. And yes biology and archaelogy demonstrates evolution. Its more than a theory to find species millions or tens of millions years old. These aren't theories, but rather observable objective facts. Do you really believe that humans shared the earth with dinosaurs?
I'll remind you Byron that based on what's in the Bible, people once believe that the Earth was the center of the universe. The Bible was not intended to be a scientific book, nor was it intended as a complete history of man or the Earth.
God doesn't ask us to check our minds at the door when we enter into relationship with him. God gave us reasoning minds so that we could figure out not only his will, but his creation. You are choosing not to use your mind by relying solely on the Bible for information it was not intended to provide.
You can stick your head in the ground and simply ignore science, but doing so is choosing a life of ignorance rather than a life of inquiry and understanding.
Secular scientists don't own science or intelligence
I like science it is one of my favorite subjects. Is this the reference in the bible you are referring to? Isaiah 40:22:
22It is He who [a]sits above the [b](A)circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like (B)grasshoppers,
Who (C)stretches out the heavens like a (D)curtain
And spreads them out like a (E)tent to dwell in.
Small note here but some theoretical physicists postulate that space could be folded (curtain like) by warping space/time somehow and travel from here to Mars for instance could be done through the folds...
I ran across this scientific theory about the position of the earth:
In the upcoming PRL paper, the authors postulate that we are indeed in a special location within the universe, specifically, "near the centre of a void where the local matter density is low." This isn't exactly a small void—it would need to be on the order of the size of the visible universe to get the new model to work.http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080929-overturning-copernicus-may-resolve-dark-energy.html
How about this statement by Jesus concerning Abel, second son of Adam and Eve, thereby authenticating creation not evolution: Matthew 23:35
...so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous [Gen 4:8-ff; Heb 11:4] Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the [Zech 1:1] son of Berechiah, whom [2 Chr 24:21] you murdered between the temple and the altar
Stephen you said: God doesn't ask us to check our minds at the door when we enter into relationship with him. God gave us reasoning minds so that we could figure out not only his will, but his creation.
Secular scientists don't own science or have a corner on intelligence. I read their observations all the time and appreciate their work of gathering facts and collecting data. I just don't buy into their evolutionary models. How smart is someone who cannot recognize intelligent design? It is sad really that they cannot. They just prove what the bible says...thinking themselves to be wise they became fools.
And...2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were [Rom 11:7; 2 Cor 4:4] hardened; for until this very day at the [Acts 13:15] reading of [2 Cor 3:6] the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
Byron
secular scientists?
Byron,
This response is laughable frankly. There is not secular science or religious science. There is simply science.
You take a quote from Isiah and then use a hypothetical from science(a lot less proven theory than evolution or the big bang) to somehow justify the Bible's inerrancy on matters of science. Now, the universe could very well have folds, but we're quite a ways a way from understanding that.
I can tell you what science does understand fully. There isn't a serious biologist in the world that doesn't subscribe to evolution. Its more than a random theory that Darwin concocted. It is the best explanation based on observable facts. They don't subscribed to intelligent design because it does not meet with the observable facts. Your interpretation of the Bible means that God created everything as it is today 6,000 years ago. No biologist looking at the facts could subscribe such a notion.
There isn't a serious geologist or astronomer or archaeologist who thinks the earth was created 6,000 years ago. There is no theory here, there are observable facts that demonstrate that the earth is indeed significantly older than what you claim the Bible states.
What your are saying turns many people off to Christianity and that's so very unfortunate. You ask people to deny fact because they don't meet with your narrow interpretation of the Bible. You are still fighting the fight of the Scopes trial almost a 100 years later when we have much more data to support the solid science of evolution.
I would worry about the future economic health of our country if we expected our great scientists to subscribe to fundamentalist Biblical interpretation in their work. Galileo anyone?
There's no such thing as a secular scientist Byron, and there's no inherent tension between religion and science (unless of course you are a fundamentalist). Exploring our world and universe allows us a deeper understanding of our environment and history, but also of God. By exploring the tremendous age and size of the universe and the evolution of species, God seems even greater to me than in your worldview. The universe being 17 billion years old is difficult for me to fully comprehend, but it brings so much more glory to God to somewhat understand his creation is vast and has been around almost beyond imagination. God gives us reasoning brains to explore his creation. You can't back into science from a narrow Biblical interpretation but rather must allow yourself to follow the truth even if it undermines your fundamentalist worldview.
Simple Question On Evolution
If evolution does not exist, then why do all branches of Judaism accept its premise?
It was the Jews, after all, who wrote the Torah -- or as we call it, the Old Testament.
Simple Answer on Evolution
All branches of Judaism do not accept evolution. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewsevolution.html
The vast majority of classical Rabbis hold that God created the world close to 6,000 years ago, and created Adam and Eve from clay. This view is based on a chronology developed in a midrash, Seder Olam, which was based on a literal reading of the book of Genesis. It is considered to have been written by the Tanna Yose ben Halafta, and cover history from the creation of the universe to the construction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. This chronology is widely accepted among most of Orthodox Judaism today.
Byron
Byron...Who Was Cain's Wife?
Byron,
I stand by my statement, "The Bible also does not claim to offer a clear chronology of human history." However, I agree with you and the Apostle Matthew as to the accuracy of the genealogy of Jesus which can be traced back to Adam. This is obviously the most important documented blood line in human history, but does not account for all the other people who were alive at the time of the family of Adam and Eve. Bible students have always puzzled over who the woman was that Cain married and where she came from.
Check out Genesis 4: 13-17. Cain has killed his brother and now is being banished from his home land and he is concerned that he will be killed by someone out in the world. Obviously, he was aware that there were other folks besides his family and one of them quickly became his wife. Who were these people that lived around them and where did they come from? The Bible simply does not offer us the answers to these questions. At this point, one person's speculation is as good as another. Perhaps, these other folks were the products of God guided evolution or perhaps they were also created in a similar fashion as Adam, but if so, when? Would it have been at the same time as Adam and Eve or perhaps millenniums before? We don't know and we don't have to. Apparently it is not a critical dimension of faith or Jesus and the Apostles would have addressed it.
Genesis 4:13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."
15 But the LORD said to him, "Not so ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
17 Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.
Byron, I believe the Lord has given us all we need to know about these matters. I also believe He is privy to a lot of information that has not been revealed. Theologians and scientists labor in futility to understand and in my opinion...that's OK. Our minds and ability to figure these things out is minuscule, but our capacity to enjoy the mystery without all the answers is unlimited.
From my perspective, the most important thing in all of life is to acknowledge and submit to the Lordship of Jesus. This is perfectly manifested as humans love God with all their being and love their neighbors like they love themselves. I believe all the Law and Prophets hang on doing this. Who are my neighbors? Well, some are evolutionists and some are not. Some are Democrats and some are Republicans. Some are atheists and some are believers. Some are straight and some are gay. All of humanity is our neighbor. We are challenged by Christ Jesus to love them all. I don't know about you, but I have my work cut out for me on this one.
Gary
"Without faith it is impossible to please God"
Gary,
Some people (like me) see the things in the word to hang my hat of faith on. Others, see only/mostly errors or problems. I don't know the original languages Hebrew and Greek but I trust the scholarship of those who compiled the New American Standard and other translations from it. I didn't live in the time of the exodus from Egypt but because Jesus accepted the old testament (the same one we have today) I accept it. He quoted often from it himself and fulfilled all the prophecies from it. That is one main reason why the chronology is important because the Messiah was supposed to come from the lineage of David. Interesting that he could trace his line from both Mary and Joseph although he was virgin born. (no problem if your the creator)
Cain married his sister. Adam lived 930 years so he and Eve could have had many girls and boys in that time. He could have married a nephews daughter who knows, why make it a problem? Besides, the Nephilim were around- Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim [Or giants] were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. Interesting to that Jesus chose to come through the line of Cains brother Shem whose blood line maybe was not contaminated possibly by these fallen angels? Just a thought...
God later blocked them from being involved in the earth...
Yes, to love God and your neighbor sums up the law and the prophets as Jesus himself reiterated to a question from a skeptic in his time. Another verse says, 1 John 2:4
The one who says, " [Titus 1:10] I have come to [1 John 3:6; 4:7] know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a [1 John 1:6] liar, and [1 John 1:8] the truth is not in him;
Another verse says, Psalm 1:1
[ The Righteous and the Wicked Contrasted. How blessed is the man who [Prov 4:14] does not walk in the [Ps 5:9, 10; 10:2-11; 36:1-4] counsel of the wicked,Nor stand in the [Ps 17:4; 119:104] path of sinners,Nor [Ps 26:4, 5; Jer 15:17] sit in the seat of scoffers!
In other words I can love everybody, even my enemies but I shouldn't hang out with them... Adults can be corrupted to you know. I tell my boys if your not standing your falling. Silence is consent/watching is condoning. There is a lot of "silence" in the church and among Christians these days who in the name of love (a misnomer often misused and misguided) are silent (not salt and light in fallen world) who in the name of "tolerance" do not stand up for righteousness.
Byron
Faith and Literalism
Byron,
You said, "Cain married his sister. Adam lived 930 years so he and Eve could have had many girls and boys in that time. He could have married a nephew's daughter who knows, why make it a problem?"
The problem is inherent when one chooses to take the Genesis account as a perfect literal chronological record of this early history of humanity. Let's look a little deeper into the Biblical narrative as it gives the account of the lineage of Adam. Genesis 4: 17-24 gives us the lineage of Cain through multiple generations down to his great great great grandson Lamech. Then in verse 25 we find that Adam and Eve have a son named Seth. In Genesis 5:3 we find that this birth happened when Adam was 130 years old and only after Cain had produced a great great great grandchild.
You say, "Cain married his sister. Adam lived 930 years so he and Eve could have had many girls and boys in that time."
Let's examine the text together.
Genesis 4:25, Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, "God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him."
This scripture reveals that Adam had not fathered any other children since Cain and Abel. Meanwhile, Cain's family lineage was growing rapidly. His male descendants were finding wives from the surrounding region and none were related to Adam. The next verses we will examine segues back into Adam's lineage and lends further credence to this conclusion.
Genesis 5:3-5 "When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died."
Byron, this does not jive with the notion that Cain married his sister, niece or cousin. Adam did not have any other children until Seth was born. No daughters of Adam are named and none are mentioned until after Seth and only after Cain has married and produced great great great grandchildren. I am sorry to be so tenacious about this point, but as you can see, literally following the Genesis account reveals to us a whole other people group apart from Adam and Eve. Have you considered that Adam is simply the fount from which the Jews can trace their lineage? Is that so far fetched considering that the Old Testament is a collection of Jewish writings?
I am not desiring to shake anyone's faith in my pursuit of this point. Perhaps in this area, I am taking a more literal position than you are. I don't feel the need to contrive phantom sisters or cousins to explain the wife of Cain or the wives of his descendants.
You have not addressed who the people might be that Cain feared and God acknowledged. Up to that point in the Genesis account, no humans are mentioned except Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel. Again, who were these other folks and how did they get on the planet? Byron, speculation is all that you or I can offer on this question. Our faith in God and our faith in the truthfulness of the Bible does not require us to explain this mystery. So, why not just let it go and enjoy the vastness of God? I don't see where it is productive or faith building to belabor the details of creation or the chronology of human history when it can only lead us to shaky premises.
My faith in Jesus is not contingent upon anyone's interpretation of Genesis. My faith was initially generated by an encounter with the resurrected Christ and has been reinforced by repeated encounters with Him and seeing the truthfulness of the most critical Bible passages substantiated through experience. Regardless of what any one believes about evolution...the basic character of humanity has not improved since the earliest historical record and the need for a Savior has not diminished.
Scientists have some pretty cool tools and methods for their deductions, but they don't have all the answers any more than theologians. There is at least one thing they do have in common...they are exploring the mysteries of life with great earnestness in spite of their limitations.
Here's a minor point of correction... You said, "Interesting too that Jesus chose to come through the line of Cains brother Shem..."
Actually, Shem was a son of Noah.
Gary
Indiana Jones of scriptures/looking for treasure
Gary,
I shouldn't write and run which is what I did this am before work. Yes, I meant Seth not Shem, I am glad you pointed that out so I could correct it. I appreciate it. Strange how my mind allows Eve to have had all daughters (don't forget the Nephilim) before she had Seth to replace Able while yours looks for inconsistencies? Don't worry your questions don't shake my faith one iota. The chronology is important because it establishes the bibles credibility as an historical document. Jesus himself, accepted the old testament. Matthew 5:17-20
17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven
So, in my mind Jesus answers your question. People who discredit the scriptures even in small ways tend to try and make the bible fit the culture of today instead of making their personal culture fit the bible. For example those who think it is okay to practice homosexuality and still be a Christian in good standing discount verses that condemn the practice because they have already undermined the accuracy in their minds some other place. Remember the devils temptation to Eve. Hath God said...?
Matt 12:25 And knowing their thoughts he said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand
One other thing. We Christians should go the second mile on obedience not try and shorten the first mile. It is counted as faith when we don't understand but still believe and follow. I am a little like Indiana Jones always questing for more treasure...
Byron
Selective Literalism
Byron,
You said,"Strange how my mind allows Eve to have had all daughters (don't forget the Nephilim) before she had Seth to replace Able while yours looks for inconsistencies?"
Byron, what I find strange is how you can be so randomly selective with what you choose to take literally and what you choose to disregard. Why would someone persist in supporting a contrived biblical narrative that fits a traditional idea that is not supported by literalism. On this point, I find it strange that your mind conjures up a string of daughters between Cain and Seth when the Bible plainly states that the daughters of Adam and Eve do not materialize until after Seth. I'm sorry, but simply mentioning the Nephilim does not explain anything in this discussion. I prefer to stay on topic and let the Bible tell us what happened rather than utilizing whimsical notions.
Brother, I am not a person who looks for inconsistencies in the Bible, but I am also not a person that fears them when they are evident. My faith is in Jesus and the Bible cannot contain all that He said and did. The Bible also barely begins to offer insight into the immeasurable workings of God throughout eternity and only scratches the surface of what He has done in human history. I do believe that the Bible is a reliable source of information for any human that wants to come closer to God, but can never become a substitute for a relationship with Him.
Let's go further than Indy and strive to store up for ourselves treasures in heaven by seeking to effectively minister to the needs of the "least of these my brethren". I think we do a better job reflecting the heart and will of God when we center our efforts there rather than quibbling about obscure passages in the Bible.
Gary
Destroying Creation destroys the Bible
Gary,
You failed to answer Matthew 5:17-20
17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven
Genesis is in the law and the prophets. So, Jesus endorsed the creation story...
Also, Genesis 3:20 refers to Eve as the mother of all the living. This is an all inclusive comment that would include a wife for Cain.
I keep talking about it because some keep questioning the validity of the fact that the Genesis account tells us the earth did not evolve. This discussion started because I feel the teaching of evolution is bad science (teaching as fact what is theory). It is atheism because it replaces God and